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Need to outgas?????

Discussion in 'General Signmaking Topics' started by DIGITAL DESIGNS, Nov 19, 2012.

  1. DIGITAL DESIGNS

    DIGITAL DESIGNS Member

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    I have only been signmaking for two years now and have just recently heard that you should not laminate or cut printed vinyl for at minium 12hrs or reccommended 24 hours. Is this true?

    I use a mutoh eco solvent printer. I have had not a single complaint, nor have I seen an issue. Please explain to me how important this is. All the videos I watch on you tube etc do not let it out gas.

    Any thoughts on this matter would be greatly appreciated.

    Thanks
     
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  2. Mosh

    Mosh Major Contributor

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    I laminate right off the printer and have been doing so for 7 years....I know there are those who say NO. Never had a FAIL yet.

    Honestly on stuff with full coverage printed at high quality I do wait....a half hour...
     
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  3. Salmoneye

    Salmoneye Very Active Member

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    Your failures will come down the line. Solvent has to outgass or evaporate if you will. If you laminate over the top you will be trapping all that solvent in there, the same stuff that makes the vinyl soft and melty until it cures well. All manufacturers require outgasing for their warranties, they aren't just making it up.
     
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  4. Salmoneye

    Salmoneye Very Active Member

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    Probably more important on wraps than flat signage.
     
  5. crystalcoastgraphics

    crystalcoastgraphics Member

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    If your printing with latex inks you don't need to outgas. But with the Eco solvents you do. You can make or buy drying units that will speed it up to just a few hours, typically 4-6. Installs are also easier when the vinyl has had a chance to properly dry. Laminating to fast can cause silvering in the laminate and also your vinyl can delaminate easier especially when doing heavy ink coverage. Your trapping gas between the layers without drying
     
  6. Mosh

    Mosh Major Contributor

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    Like I say...I have wrap on one of my shop trucks that still looks new...SEVEN YEARS later, lamed right after print...but do as you want...Time is money!
     
  7. ColoPrinthead

    ColoPrinthead Swollen Member

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    I might wait about 30 minutes before I laminate my eco-sol. I get silvering in the laminate when I go fast, but by the time the wrap are installed, its gone.
     
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  8. Techman

    Techman Major Contributor

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    i never wait. never have, never will.
    Print, lam and send it out.
     
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  9. mgcustomgraphics

    mgcustomgraphics Member

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    Same here l print, lam right away and never had a problem, i use ecosolvent.
     
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  10. 401Graphics

    401Graphics Very Active Member

    sometimes i wait to laminate, sometimes i dont. depends how fast i need the job done. But havnt had any issues.
    [​IMG]
     

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  11. GAC05

    GAC05 Major Contributor

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    hehe
     
  12. kanini

    kanini Member

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    I'm also curious about this, some say wait some say don't. We usually wait to the next day just because of workload, but when in a pinch I've taken the print right off the Roland Eco-Sol printer and laminated with heat assist. Worked very well and looks brand new many years later...
     
  13. DSC

    DSC Member

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    I have seen the laminate be less tacky on/to a print when applying quickly.. It has never failed, but adhesion is definitely as issue, short term .. full bleed print/cuts I always tell the crew to wait for 2 reasons, 1- the blade/cut performs better with a "harder" print. and the laminate adheres more so we don't get any "pulling" or "drag" on the lam. Which I think has happened once.. If I laminate within 30 minutes of a print I can pull the laminate right off with no damage to the print .. I think it is an issue.. HOWEVER, I would not take it into consideration on a time crunch for a job that needs to get out the door. Based on my experience, I would take my chances, statistically,
    It is not worth consideration in that scenario for us. I think it is way overhyped, but definitely valid as well ..
     
  14. mnapuran

    mnapuran Active Member

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    On wraps, we typically do wait 24 hours before laminating. I've seen enough examples of jobs where they were laminated too soon after printing... remove the wrap from the vehicle, and there is the print in the clear coat of the paint. It will outgas one way or another.

    Heck, even laminating immediately on a print going on a sign, it's obvious when applying the vinyl that it is MUCH softer then when you let it outgas properly.

    As has been stated... the manufacturers want you to do it for warranty purposes as well. But hey, do what you want! If timing is an issue, I always explain the situation to the customer and let them decide... they usually wait :)
     
  15. aaronJREgraphics

    aaronJREgraphics Member

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    I run a couple mutohs and i let flat signage like yard signs and such gas for n hour or so before laminating but vehicle wraps and window perf etc i always let dry over night to be safe. Window perf is the big one if you are laming it wait over night trust me.
     
  16. Vital Designs

    Vital Designs Vital Designs

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    I was of the opinion that it didn't matter until a couple of weeks ago. We had wrapped a van about 18 months ago and one of the panels got printed incorrectly. We only noticed towards the end of the install so we reprinted it and laminated it within 1/2 hour of printing it.

    I had that same van in the shop a couple of weeks ago for some overlay changes and I noticed the whole van looked perfect but that panel had a different look. It looked like the ink didn't lay down correctly (almost like pooling) and the print wasn't as crisp as the rest of the van. From a distance it was unnoticeable . There were no indications the vinyl / lam would fail at this time. They were printed on a JV33 with ss21 inks.

    I didn't get a picture of it but next time I see it I will.
     
  17. bob

    bob Major Contributor

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    For all of you that think that all those nasty gasses will be trapped under the laminate if you don't wait some silly amount of time, you should familiarize yourselves with the concept of 'gas permeability'. Vinyl media is gas permeable. Any of the mythical gasses that might be trapped will eventually make good their escape. That's the reason that small bubbles go away all by themselves over time.

    Secondly, solvent in is exactly that, solvent. It vigorously attacks the vinyl media and it dries by evaporation of the volatile solvents. Heavily printed vinyl becomes gummy because of the solvents eating into it, not because of 'outgassing', whatever that might mean. The volatile fractions that evaporate are exactly that, volatile, and they evaporate rapidly. When a print is dry to the fingertip glide test, it's sufficiently dry to laminate. Or do whatever with it.
     
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  18. Bigdawg

    Bigdawg Just Me

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    We've had a couple failures with the lam delaminating from the prints on a fleet we did - doesn't show up for a few months, but we've been able to track it directly down to prints that were printed and immediately laminated. 3M wrap material with 8518 lam with full ink coverage. Other pieces printed from the same roll and laminated the next day are fine on the same vehicle.

    Will every print fail? I don't think so... but it makes sense to me to go ahead and wait. If this hadn't been a fleet customer - just a single wrap job - we would probably have never heard about it. The customer would have just said "crappy job they did" and moved on. But since it was part of a fleet, we were able to track down the only common denominator - laminating immediately after printing.
     
  19. Gino

    Gino Major Contributor

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    Great answer and actual experience.

    For the most part, we at least wait over night. Why take a chance ?? Have we ever been rushed and did it within the hour ?? Yep, and not one return that I can think of to date.

    It's a crap shoot.... you might get lucky.... ya might not ?? However, if you follow the instructions, you have 1/2 a chance of the manufacturer backing you up. Not following directions voids out any help you might otherwise receive.
     
  20. ProWraps

    ProWraps Very Active Member

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    this again....

    if there is any question about what outgassing does. go print a full coverage panel, lam it right away and install it.

    then do it after outgassing. if you say you cant tell the difference you are either daft, inexperienced or lying.

    **sidenote, this only applies to solvent base printers (solvent, eco sol, etc.).
     
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  21. Joe Diaz

    Joe Diaz Very Active Member

    Here is what we have found. First we use EcoSol ink printers, so that may play a huge role. Many of our graphics are laminated as soon as they are done printing. This has not effected the longevity of our prints. We have yet to experience material failure whether we let our prints sit or laminate them right away. We use Oracal films. That may also play a role.

    Now, here is where we have noticed a difference: graphics that have sat over night, are easier to reposition if you are doing wrap work, and are easier to remove. But longevity? It hasn't made a difference. So for graphics on flat surfaces like signs, We just go ahead laminate them as soon as they are done printing.

    And before someone chimes in and calls me an idiot for doing what we do, save it. We have tested, tested and retested. We keep a close eye on all of our work. It holds up. Our primary goal at our shop has always been to create long lasting signs. Our reputation is dependent on it. This is what we have found, I can't say if it will work for others with different equipment and materials.
     
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