I jumped in with both feet,Fell srait on my face.Lost my a-- the first few jobs.Now I know how to price,"most"of the work I do.Just started doing the kind of stuff I should have started with. You sound like you have the know how,And background.You can do anything when you put your mind to it.If the owner is willing to show you the ropes,and asist in some clients.Do what your hart tells you.If a job isn't fun why do it? You go to work and then you die. Now What?
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New business advice...
- Thread starter plamo
- Start date
I would look at new cnc before dropping 44k on a used one. AXYZ makes really good ones in Canada that start at around 20k. For 44k you would get a really nice unit with training, setup, and warrentee and service. Plus it would be really current with software, etc.
Speaking of software, that is definitely important as most cnc progys are 10k plus.
Ths plotter is not even worth talking about.
Also Shopbot makes a cheapy that works suprisingly well for about 10k.
Really look around before buying and then later learning what you should have done.
Also when you get into it, you will find there are lots of cnc out there, and the market is really tough.
Look before you leap,
P
Speaking of software, that is definitely important as most cnc progys are 10k plus.
Ths plotter is not even worth talking about.
Also Shopbot makes a cheapy that works suprisingly well for about 10k.
Really look around before buying and then later learning what you should have done.
Also when you get into it, you will find there are lots of cnc out there, and the market is really tough.
Look before you leap,
P
paul luszcz
New Member
I have a degree in Industrial Design and it is a good background for a sign maker. The ability to design in three dimensions and an understanding and ability to build what you design are great for designing and building signs.
But that's not half of what you need to run a sign business and your reasons for starting or buying a sign business put ou in the category of "new Business Most Likely to Fail".
The best reason to start a business is because you have identified a market need that you can profitably meet. Have you done this? Do you know how to start doing this?
If you went through this process with no predetermined outcome, are you likely to end up with either the new (#2) or purchased (#1) sign business?
If you predetermined that you wanted to start or buy a sign business, and then went through this process, what market need would you fill? Only then would have any idea what equipment it will take to fill it.
And then it would only be worth doing if you could make an educated guess as to what it take to do profitably. Can you?
You could buy the used router and plotter you mentioned for about $12K, so this is not a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Instead of choosing to start from scratch and possibly lose $50K in year one, get a full time job in a sign company and possibly earn $50K while you learn the business.
But that's not half of what you need to run a sign business and your reasons for starting or buying a sign business put ou in the category of "new Business Most Likely to Fail".
The best reason to start a business is because you have identified a market need that you can profitably meet. Have you done this? Do you know how to start doing this?
If you went through this process with no predetermined outcome, are you likely to end up with either the new (#2) or purchased (#1) sign business?
If you predetermined that you wanted to start or buy a sign business, and then went through this process, what market need would you fill? Only then would have any idea what equipment it will take to fill it.
And then it would only be worth doing if you could make an educated guess as to what it take to do profitably. Can you?
You could buy the used router and plotter you mentioned for about $12K, so this is not a once in a lifetime opportunity.
Instead of choosing to start from scratch and possibly lose $50K in year one, get a full time job in a sign company and possibly earn $50K while you learn the business.
Checkers
New Member
All good suggestions, but I'm surprised no one suggested a business plan yet. So, I guess its my job 
You can spend $50k and have a pile of stuff that does absolutely nothing but cost you money, or come up with a working plan where, if you invest $50k, you can expect to see a return.
If you do a search here, I'm sure you'll find a lot of info.
Checkers
You can spend $50k and have a pile of stuff that does absolutely nothing but cost you money, or come up with a working plan where, if you invest $50k, you can expect to see a return.
If you do a search here, I'm sure you'll find a lot of info.
Checkers
ChicagoGraphics
New Member
Plamo......If your really looking to get in the sign business, why not just move to that state and tell the guy you will run his business and give him a percentage till you have it paid off. This way you already have the work and really no money out of your pocket.
I thought about moving to the city where the business is currently located, but decided against it. My wife has a good job here and we both like it here. Besides, I figured If I could buy this business for very close to what the equipment is worth then why not move it? I'm not really paying anything extra, plus I would get the benefit of the current owners experience and training.
A business plan is something I plan on doing, maybe I feel a little rushed to jump in now because of this opportunity. You may be right Paul, I guess this is not a once in a lifetime opportunity but it kind of feels like it.
I live in Alberta, which is booming. There are a lot of sign companies here, but with the constant growth of the city, lots of business as well. I guess my thinking was that once I gained enough experience I would be able to compete with most other sign shops on the basis of good design, quality, and customer service. It frustrates me to see other people with their own businesses (any kind) that maybe demonstrate one of these qualities, and are still presumably successful. So, why not me? I'm a smart guy, I know I'm capable of running a business the right way.
I think I would really like to get into the CNC routing aspect, even if I wasn't a sign shop per se. Is there enough market if this was all I did (for now) along with some design work? 3-D lettering for other companies? Maybe kitchen cabinet doors? Routed signs? Anything else?
You guys have been very helpful, lots of good advice. I think I might hold off on buying this business for now. Maybe I'll see if he might want to do some training for cash just to help me get my feet wet before moving forward. It's hard to be patient when I feel like I've stagnated at work, even though I have a pretty good job. Guess I'll have to grin and bear it at least a little while longer.
A business plan is something I plan on doing, maybe I feel a little rushed to jump in now because of this opportunity. You may be right Paul, I guess this is not a once in a lifetime opportunity but it kind of feels like it.
I live in Alberta, which is booming. There are a lot of sign companies here, but with the constant growth of the city, lots of business as well. I guess my thinking was that once I gained enough experience I would be able to compete with most other sign shops on the basis of good design, quality, and customer service. It frustrates me to see other people with their own businesses (any kind) that maybe demonstrate one of these qualities, and are still presumably successful. So, why not me? I'm a smart guy, I know I'm capable of running a business the right way.
I think I would really like to get into the CNC routing aspect, even if I wasn't a sign shop per se. Is there enough market if this was all I did (for now) along with some design work? 3-D lettering for other companies? Maybe kitchen cabinet doors? Routed signs? Anything else?
You guys have been very helpful, lots of good advice. I think I might hold off on buying this business for now. Maybe I'll see if he might want to do some training for cash just to help me get my feet wet before moving forward. It's hard to be patient when I feel like I've stagnated at work, even though I have a pretty good job. Guess I'll have to grin and bear it at least a little while longer.
masterdesigns
New Member
Relocating a business, whether he was successful or not, may or may not give you similar returns. Most of what he provides you in the way of "how much can I make" is with the client base that no longer exists.
I think it is wise not to move to the location the business is at also. His customers were loyal to him, not the business. Either way, you are starting from nearly scratch.
Market analysis wherever you decide to base out of will help you with what products to sell. Then again, trial and error may work but often takes longer to figure this out.
I think it is wise not to move to the location the business is at also. His customers were loyal to him, not the business. Either way, you are starting from nearly scratch.
Market analysis wherever you decide to base out of will help you with what products to sell. Then again, trial and error may work but often takes longer to figure this out.
signsbygeorge
New Member
I have a Sabre 408 and it is a good machine; the brand is good, but expensive. There are much cheaper brands out there, but don't get the Shopbot. 50,000.00 sounds like a lotta money for assets only; that old HS plotter is probably only worth 1,500.00 at most. The router maybe 24,000.00 or less even if 2yrs old. Depreciated; check out SignWeb for used router prices. People are buying them and finding out their investment was too much for the return consistently.
I don't think you will be happy just doing vinyl lettering. Your metal fab experience dovetails with the CNC. Consider wholesaling to other sign shops to start. Router work is a different animal than vinyl work and finding the market will be a challenge. Personally I find the router work to be much more satisfying.
I agree with Geary in that design will set you apart in the vinyl work. And also in the router work. But marketing is much more important, esp. initially when starting out. It will make the difference as to whether or not you will succeed or go under. 9 out of 10 businesses fail in the first 5 yrs; it is a statistical reality.
In general figure double what you think it will cost to start a business and you will end up being closer than not. Lean 1st years are common and if you can avoid them you are a true success. But being prepared to bite the bullet income-wise may also be smart. Creativity is real cool, and will set you apart.
But pure dumb-assed stubborness is possibly what will keep you going.
Marketing, marketing. Go after the big guys and keep your image polished. There are 12 signguys making wages for every 1 who does GOOD. Wish I knew how he got that cherry account!
I don't think you will be happy just doing vinyl lettering. Your metal fab experience dovetails with the CNC. Consider wholesaling to other sign shops to start. Router work is a different animal than vinyl work and finding the market will be a challenge. Personally I find the router work to be much more satisfying.
I agree with Geary in that design will set you apart in the vinyl work. And also in the router work. But marketing is much more important, esp. initially when starting out. It will make the difference as to whether or not you will succeed or go under. 9 out of 10 businesses fail in the first 5 yrs; it is a statistical reality.
In general figure double what you think it will cost to start a business and you will end up being closer than not. Lean 1st years are common and if you can avoid them you are a true success. But being prepared to bite the bullet income-wise may also be smart. Creativity is real cool, and will set you apart.
But pure dumb-assed stubborness is possibly what will keep you going.
Marketing, marketing. Go after the big guys and keep your image polished. There are 12 signguys making wages for every 1 who does GOOD. Wish I knew how he got that cherry account!
petepaz
New Member
price seems too high for what you are getting especially with no customer list
you can spend about $20,000.00 and get all the new , that's right new equipment you would need to get started
do a little more research about the business and see who your competition would be in your area if any
i jumped into a business with a freind(rule #1 don't go into business with a friend) a fitness center i figured i had been working out for 6 years i can do thisso i went and spent money on equipment , fitness certification and massage theropy after 4 years i got a real nice bankrupcy
i like working for the man he takes go care of me
just be carefull do more research!
you can spend about $20,000.00 and get all the new , that's right new equipment you would need to get started
do a little more research about the business and see who your competition would be in your area if any
i jumped into a business with a freind(rule #1 don't go into business with a friend) a fitness center i figured i had been working out for 6 years i can do thisso i went and spent money on equipment , fitness certification and massage theropy after 4 years i got a real nice bankrupcy
i like working for the man he takes go care of me
just be carefull do more research!
Geary
New Member
Well guys....I believe he gets that this "home-based business" is not the cool deal he first thought it was. And that if you have the wherewithal to get your hands on 50 grand to start a business....then first things first: Learn the business then buy brand new stuff. And by the time that happens the "stuff" will be BETTER and less expensive anyhow. 
('tis the way of technology)
('tis the way of technology)