New Logo for fairly new sign company

[Tim Aucoin]

If I may... just to get my 2¢ worth in on the branding discussion...
Keep in mind that this is coming from a Franchise, so it may be a little different discussion than branding a stand-alone business, but... I will say that when we switched brand and changed our name last year, which allowed us to sub-brand exactly what we offer, our sign business has increased significantly and I get jobs from folks I would never have expected to hear from a couple of years ago. Our "old" name was so mom & pop sounding and put an impression in people's heads that all we did was copies (regardless of the tag line). So, this is a case where re-branding made a difference. It hasn't doubled our business (yet), but we certainly have been busier than previous years!

 

[Chriswagner92]

Maybe op should partner with a designer

 

[shoresigns]

If you're on a budget for logo design, you won't get much lower than $800 for quality work. If that's still over budget, I would suggest hiring one of those design contest websites for $200, but for god's sake, DO NOT choose the winner yourself. Post the entries here and get some (free) advice from the great designers we have here, as to which one will look best and work best for your company.

 

[Pat Whatley]

If you're on a budget for logo design, you won't get much lower than $800 for quality work. If that's still over budget, I would suggest hiring one of those design contest websites for $200, but for god's sake, DO NOT choose the winner yourself. Post the entries here and get some (free) advice from the great designers we have here, as to which one will look best and work best for your company.

Yeah, because that idea worked so well the last time somebody tried it. :Big Laugh

 

[Rick]

Wow this thread took on a life of its own.
OP got about 20 or so FREE designs to choose from. Even an entire
FREE branding like the one above which is actually worth some $$$$.
This is the problem with most industries today. Things are given away
for FREE. If not for free there is always someone undercutting you on
craigslist for a few bucks just for beer money.
Is it wrong, hell yeah, can it be stopped? Doubtful, but for someone
like the author himself who started the topic out by saying he did signs
for beer money I think I found the answer.

There are many problems with this business but none are all universal.
I never worry about newbies or Craigslist designers because I don't compete
for that slice of the business... let them claw for 200 bucks, same with
crowdsource, not competing with some third world country designer where 30 bucks
is a weeks wage because they do not understand North American visual language
and selling to most people who are clueless about good branding and design.

I'm not giving away anything, I'm contributing to the forum the way I see fit.
I've done about 100+ logos here, only a few have ever been used, of those
used, I did not charge them, I had them purchase a one year subscription
here to help keep the forum going. It's rare any designs showed are used, why?
I think most newbies are clueless... they wouldn't know decent design if it
slapped them in the face.

What I see is a lazy effort by someone who may not get design or have an eye
for it. If they are going to get into this full time, they need schooling... this OP
looks like he needs a lot. What took him a few seconds or minutes shows what he
thinks (or knows) about design. I think most people can learn layout and design...
enough that it won't look as bad as this original layout. In my mind, the best way
for me is to show them AND contribute to the forum.

 

[Gino]

Ya know Rick, you're right.

When I went to school to learn reading, the teacher spelled out the word on a blackboard, sounded it out and showed us techniques to do it on our own. We then went home and practiced.

The same thing happened in arithmetic and other subjects. The teacher would show us the correct way and we would learn the mechanics of eventually doing it ourselves. We took tests and exams on it. It meant something that way. This process took close to 12 years.... and if ya thought you were extra good at something, you could pay lotsa money and learn it even more and get a badge for it, and you could even become a master or doctor in it.

Seeing how that's old school, I guess the way to learn today is to go to school and demand someone show you everything and continue to do so, until your lesson has been accomplished. You didn't learn anything, but you advanced, nonetheless. If one survives 2, 3 or 5 years, they consider themselves very astute in their new found profession. Just come here and get your work handed to you, don't pay a thing or at least contribute and just keep making money without knowing even the basics or fundamentals of this industry. Pretty neat, huh ??


What you do for the community is far above and beyond what someone should or needs to do.... even in this place. You are a true teacher and people person. I bow down to your kindness and knowledge. Thank you for being here. I mean that.

Gino
​

 

[hansman]

I hear that.
Rick went above the 10 minute chalenge. It may have taken 11 minutes........
Just trying to make sense of how to charge for things digital. Maybe use the the late great Steve Jobs model of .99 cents?
I have a friend who is an IT manager for Comcast. The guy makes big bucks, for now.
Some of the jobs in his dept are being farmed out to India where 30 bucks is a weeks wage as you said above.
ah fougettaboutit its time for a

 

[WCSign]

I think what we posted IS usable compared to what the OP posted. Some of my best
ideas happen in seconds or minutes after giving it some thought. What we show
in a sketch has worth.

What ticks me off is the undercutting of MY business pricing model. I'm not losing
any business to Neato or anyone charging 200-500 bucks, but c'mon. 200 Bucks!

I design stuff for free cuz I need a distraction, and most newbies can not visualize a darn thing.
So why not... it's why I'm here... to share what I know.

I truly believe the logo I designed would be charged at my new minimum... and it's a lot more than
800 bucks.

Here it is in all it's glory. I'm sticking this in my portfolio because I think it's a clever, clean logo.

I may have been a lil cranky yesterday so sowwy Pat...

looks great

 

[Rick]

I hear that.
Rick went above the 10 minute chalenge. It may have taken 11 minutes........
Just trying to make sense of how to charge for things digital. Maybe use the the late great Steve Jobs model of .99 cents?
I have a friend who is an IT manager for Comcast. The guy makes big bucks, for now.
Some of the jobs in his dept are being farmed out to India where 30 bucks is a weeks wage as you said above.
ah fougettaboutit its time for a

Are you a replicator or a designer?

I don't aspire to be a lowballing (talented or hack) designer.
With over 30 years of doing this, I would hope that my
experience would account or something.

I aspire to this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfDCNpaPBiA

If I was a replicator, I would develop a system where profit and low pricing
were optimized and forget craigslist hacks and low ballers.

 

[hansman]

I am a bit of both but like to think of myself as the mechanic. The guy who knows how to get the thought put into something real.
When I was doing Tyson fight posters for the Atlantic city casinos by hand in the 80s it was different. It took a week of hard work and patience.
Now its how fast can you get it done, screw quality...............
In reality I think it all matters on where you are located as well as timing this insane economy.

 

[Rick]

With all this BRANDING talk...

You know, I may be jumping the gun. I would like to have a logo, but a logo doesn't get you business. I need to focus on getting a customer base, bigger than the one I have now and focus on producing good work. Like I said, I think, I have primarily focused on vehicle lettering and some re-lettering of lexan and plexi signs. Mostly new businesses. I should establish a working relation with a graphic artist to design signs for me and then I can cut, mount and maintain them. I did work for a sign company when I was younger, lit box signs, painted foam letters mounted to buildings, channel lettering. But it has been years since then. Right now, I do have a LLC that I work under, I have insurance and a bond, required in my town. Im not looking for beer money, hope i didn't offend anyone, bur rather a career. I'm very mechanical, but not really artistic, which is weird, cause I was when I was a kid. Anyway, I will contact the above mentioned people. Thanks for the input, and by all means, keep it coming.

In your absence... your logo, brand, business card is the only connection to your
customer... in my opinion, you want to make the best impression possible...

 

[Rick]

I am a bit of both but like to think of myself as the mechanic. The guy who knows how to get the thought put into something real.
When I was doing Tyson fight posters for the Atlantic city casinos by hand in the 80s it was different. It took a week of hard work and patience.
Now its how fast can you get it done, screw quality...............
In reality I think it all matters on where you are located as well as timing this insane economy.

I'm in one of the most economically depressed areas of Southern California.

I choose to do work all over the US... and occasionally other countries.

 

[Biker Scout]

HAHA! I say that all the time... "I don't care what the client wants, I know what they want, and I'm going to give them my vision and sell it to them."

 

[toucan_graphics]

Are you a replicator or a designer?

I aspire to this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfDCNpaPBiA

If I was a replicator, I would develop a system where profit and low pricing
were optimized and forget craigslist hacks and low ballers.

Saul Bass looks like Mr. Wilson from the old Dennis the Menace comics :Big Laugh

 

[Jillbeans]

I just did truck lettering for a guy, who was referred to me by a client I've had for 20 years. He had camera-ready, very mediocre, artwork (I was shocked)
He got his new logo "from a contest online" I am assuming crowdsource or whatever.
I asked how much it cost him, thinking it would be like $50 or something.
It was almost $500, which is more than I charge for a nice logo.
And I always throw in at least 500 bizcards as a thank-you.
He's going to order bizcards from me.
:Big Laugh

 

[neato]

Wow...I need to go rethink my entire life now after reading through this thread.

I guess my problem is I don't see value in design. I try to charge by the hour, because I'm mostly working for sign shops who need to turn around and charge their own customers. My prices are more or less dictated by the overall concept of design value in the sign industry.

If I even tried to charge $800 for a logo, I think I'd starve. But I only think that. Maybe I need to get over my own inhibitions and develop the confidence to charge the value of a logo.

Here's a question Rick: Say you charge $1000 for a logo design, but the design comes to you in 5 minutes. Do you send it off 5 min after getting paid? Or do you hold back a while so the client thinks it's taking longer and they're getting value for what they paid. Or do you just do some more concepts to fill in time?

I'm not being facetious either. I'm really curious. This is something I struggle with.

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Wow...I need to go rethink my entire life now after reading through this thread.

I guess my problem is I don't see value in design. I try to charge by the hour, because I'm mostly working for sign shops who need to turn around and charge their own customers. My prices are more or less dictated by the overall concept of design value in the sign industry.

If I even tried to charge $800 for a logo, I think I'd starve. But I only think that. Maybe I need to get over my own inhibitions and develop the confidence to charge the value of a logo.

Here's a question Rick: Say you charge $1000 for a logo design, but the design comes to you in 5 minutes. Do you send it off 5 min after getting paid? Or do you hold back a while so the client thinks it's taking longer and they're getting value for what they paid. Or do you just do some more concepts to fill in time?

I'm not being facetious either. I'm really curious. This is something I struggle with.

Neato,

No design takes 5 minutes to execute. In my case, if it did take 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 days, it's taken 20 years of experience plus those 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 days. Why penalize yourself for being good, or efficient. You didn't get that way by accident.

I don't think we're really any faster today than we used to be. In fact, I'd say we're the opposite. We budget 30 hours to design a brand. And 95% of the time - it takes that and perhaps even more. We put a lot more time and thought into our work than say 5 or 10 years ago. Which is why our rates have increased as well - to reflect the time it takes, and the value of the brand.

Would you rather do 4 logos for $200 a piece or one for $800? We do all start somewhere. My first logo sold for $25 in 1995.

 

[Marlene]

this thread has taken on a life of it's own hasn't it. anyone hear from the OP on this at all? I'm not seeing much from him. seems like the guy is working out of his bedroom or something close to that so $800 for a guy like that would seem like a huge cost output where it wouldn't to an acutal business. with that said there are many on this site who do jump in and design for anyone who posts a crappy design with a "this is what I'd do" as nice as that is, it isn't very much help to the OP. instead of doing the work for them, guide them. if they have an ounce of talent, it will start to show with a few verbal clues. we have some great designers here and some verbal instructions would go a lot farther in helping the OP than just doing the job for them. if the person continues to suck, then it is clear that they will never get it and are in the wrong business. I have seen on this site people go from horrid to good with some help, not the kind where a designer does all the work, but when the OP is given ideas and tries them him or herself.

 

[peavey123]

Wow...I need to go rethink my entire life now after reading through this thread.

I guess my problem is I don't see value in design. I try to charge by the hour, because I'm mostly working for sign shops who need to turn around and charge their own customers. My prices are more or less dictated by the overall concept of design value in the sign industry.

If I even tried to charge $800 for a logo, I think I'd starve. But I only think that. Maybe I need to get over my own inhibitions and develop the confidence to charge the value of a logo.

Here's a question Rick: Say you charge $1000 for a logo design, but the design comes to you in 5 minutes. Do you send it off 5 min after getting paid? Or do you hold back a while so the client thinks it's taking longer and they're getting value for what they paid. Or do you just do some more concepts to fill in time?

I'm not being facetious either. I'm really curious. This is something I struggle with.

Same here actually. I'm not even sure how that would work? I wish I could take days to do a logo and charge a large sum of money to do so...but normally I have to produce something in hours -by the hour, not days. Plus I need to layout banners, engraving files etc. at the same time to keep the printer running and guys busy.

Like you said Neato, maybe it's a confidence thing?..probably partly so. I don't think I'm the greatest designer by any means, but I do believe in my design skills and always see improvement. Maybe I should work on that eh? I know my boss would like it if I got $1500 to do a logo. hehe

 

[Gino]

Neato........

I know you didn't address me, but my take is a little like yours as it's hard to put a number on something like this. When something like creating a logo/design/layout comes easy to you as it does some others, one tends to lose the notion of it's worth. While to you it's an everyday kinda thing, your juices are rapidly flowing and knocking this stuff out right and left...... thus giving you a false sense of their true worth/value. I used to do this myself..... for years. Years later, I then noticed what the other agencies [not sign shops] were getting, which were astonishing heaps of money for pure bullcrap. They didn't do squat for their customers except tell them how much they needed their help at re-inventing themselves. They'd get $3,500, $10,000 and much much more.... and here I was doing the same thing without all the pretty schmooze stuff, getting $75 or $100 and feeling good about it. I then upped my prices on logos and company identities. I started using different words and sprucing up my presentations and started getting good bucks. I kept putting it up, until I was getting for one, what I was getting for 25. Now, I only have to work an hour or two to make what I used to do in maybe 30 or so hours. Sure, getting $100 bucks for an hours worth of work seemed great, but getting $2,500 for two hours worth of work was even better.

I still do the occasional layout for a guy coming in for a one-off and maybe only get $250 or so for it, but he doesn't need or want anything great. He just wants HIS truck to look good and be noticed.




As for re-branding or designing logos, that was never the issue with me in this whole thread. When someone comes in and wants a simple sign or truck lettered, you just have to verbally give them a three tier pricing idea. No pictures, drawings or creations need to be made to give a verbal quote. Show them examples either on your monitor, from a scrapbook, hand draw some thumbnails [which don't leave the shop] or in our case... with what's going through the shop at the moment and let them see first hand the quality of your work. They are there to get a price and if you can show them some things in person, it usually sells immediately and in your favor. Remember, the idea behind wraps is to wow the viewers and that's what we do when we get a potential client in our doors. We don't go around doing an hours worth of creations in hopes they'll pick us. We quote, get a deposit, then we give designs/drawings/proofs...... not before. We WOW them They want a sign or a truck lettered. If you can't show them, then you have to rely on salesmanship or fast double talking...... or price.