New Logo for fairly new sign company

[Z SIGNS]

I like your logo.It's awesome.It will generate a lot of work for your competitors.

 

[neato]

I know the talk of "intervention" earlier in this thread was tongue-in-cheek, but what if we had an industry intervention.

What if we setup a webinar session for shop owners about pricing and charging for the value of design services. Wouldn't it be fantastic to get tips and help from guys like Dan and Rick?

Would there be any interest in something like that?

I think it would benefit everyone to hear that we're undercharging and give us some confidence to change that.

 

[Stormyj]

You know that after all of this OP is gonna go ahead and use what he designed.

No no. I have been sitting in the background learning quite a bit. I have taken many ideas and while I will not steal anyone's property, I will try and build on what some have contributed. I will contact the people that I decide to build on and will post what I come up with. Its amazing that from my single post, unimaginative image, and newb ignorance, I have come away from this with so much more. I definitely am liking this site and will continue to come back. But, please don't let me interrupt, I can always learn more so carry on.

 

[Stormyj]

I know... I was looking at an older thread a few weeks ago where another guy decided to get into the sign business, he posted
a poop logo - really bad, like this one, we go in, have this same discussion, and poof, after a few weeks - he's gone.

But for some reason, these posts are like crack to me...

I cant guarantee that I will be a part of this forum for 11 years, but i will listen to people that have been in the business longer than I. I have been doing this for 4 years and plan on continuing.

 

[Moze]

.....it's taken 20 years of experience plus those 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 days.

Is there a "Like" button...?

 

[Stormyj]

There are many problems with this business but none are all universal.
I never worry about newbies or Craigslist designers because I don't compete
for that slice of the business... let them claw for 200 bucks, same with
crowdsource, not competing with some third world country designer where 30 bucks
is a weeks wage because they do not understand North American visual language
and selling to most people who are clueless about good branding and design.

I'm not giving away anything, I'm contributing to the forum the way I see fit.
I've done about 100+ logos here, only a few have ever been used, of those
used, I did not charge them, I had them purchase a one year subscription
here to help keep the forum going. It's rare any designs showed are used, why?
I think most newbies are clueless... they wouldn't know decent design if it
slapped them in the face.

What I see is a lazy effort by someone who may not get design or have an eye
for it. If they are going to get into this full time, they need schooling... this OP
looks like he needs a lot. What took him a few seconds or minutes shows what he
thinks (or knows) about design. I think most people can learn layout and design...
enough that it won't look as bad as this original layout. In my mind, the best way
for me is to show them AND contribute to the forum.

Thanks for the input. Maybe i should donate to the forum. It's actually a small price to pay for the great input and advice I have received. I know that this forum probably gets a lot of one time posts and posts from people that never come back and read what they asked for. I have and appreciate the input. Just to clarify, I never actually asked for free logo design, but I am not a graphic artist and have no training in designing that sort of art. I put stickers on cars and trucks, sign fronts and windows. I change light bulbs, wiring and ballasts. I want to get into more graphic art and design because I was tired of customers asking me for a specific product and I had to tell them I couldn't do it because of lack of the right equipment or I just didn't have the talent. That is another reason I joined this forum. As for beer money. I did start this as kind of a hobby and for beer money. But with losing my full time job, this is much more now. I have bills to pay just like everyone else and am now looking forward to making this a full time job.
So I guess it just boils down to, "Time will tell." If a position comes up that I decide to take it and the sign business again falls to the wayside, then so be it. If not, then I plan on developing a relationship with this forum and others in the sign industry. I hope to have many more constructive conversations on this forum. Thank you all.

 

[neato]

10 minute quick idea...

 

[Stormyj]

this thread has taken on a life of it's own hasn't it. anyone hear from the OP on this at all? I'm not seeing much from him. seems like the guy is working out of his bedroom or something close to that so $800 for a guy like that would seem like a huge cost output where it wouldn't to an acutal business. with that said there are many on this site who do jump in and design for anyone who posts a crappy design with a "this is what I'd do" as nice as that is, it isn't very much help to the OP. instead of doing the work for them, guide them. if they have an ounce of talent, it will start to show with a few verbal clues. we have some great designers here and some verbal instructions would go a lot farther in helping the OP than just doing the job for them. if the person continues to suck, then it is clear that they will never get it and are in the wrong business. I have seen on this site people go from horrid to good with some help, not the kind where a designer does all the work, but when the OP is given ideas and tries them him or herself.

I have been sitting in the background and just listening and learning. I have been playing with some of the ideas and have actually learned a few things that I didnt know before. I do appreciate the input from all, even the negative input. But as lincoln said,

"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt."
But i am still here.

 

[Stormyj]

10 minute quick idea...

That sir is exactly what my wife just said she would want, and then you posted it. Awesome idea, maybe with the branded idea previously posted. Im working on it!!

 

[Tim Aucoin]

No no. I have been sitting in the background learning quite a bit. I have taken many ideas and while I will not steal anyone's property, I will try and build on what some have contributed. I will contact the people that I decide to build on and will post what I come up with. Its amazing that from my single post, unimaginative image, and newb ignorance, I have come away from this with so much more. I definitely am liking this site and will continue to come back. But, please don't let me interrupt, I can always learn more so carry on.

It is this kind of response (and attitude) that will take someone a LONG WAY! I applaud you Stormy!!

 

[HulkSmash]

this thread has taken on a life of it's own hasn't it. anyone hear from the OP on this at all? I'm not seeing much from him. seems like the guy is working out of his bedroom or something close to that so $800 for a guy like that would seem like a huge cost output where it wouldn't to an acutal business. with that said there are many on this site who do jump in and design for anyone who posts a crappy design with a "this is what I'd do" as nice as that is, it isn't very much help to the OP. instead of doing the work for them, guide them. if they have an ounce of talent, it will start to show with a few verbal clues. we have some great designers here and some verbal instructions would go a lot farther in helping the OP than just doing the job for them. if the person continues to suck, then it is clear that they will never get it and are in the wrong business. I have seen on this site people go from horrid to good with some help, not the kind where a designer does all the work, but when the OP is given ideas and tries them him or herself.

wow. just, wow. Who cares if he's working out of his basement. Let the designers help how they want.

You're judging someone based off where their business is out of? Disrespectful.

 

[Stormyj]

wow. just, wow. Who cares if he's working out of his basement. Let the designers help how they want.

You're judging someone based off where their business is out of? Disrespectful.

Maybe Marlene just didnt see my other posts. NP

 

[Biker Scout]

As for the dilemma of what to do about your swift design skills... well, do what high end restaurants do. They let your food sit. Make you think it's taking longer. But if you think about it, a well polished restaurant has all the equipment and knowledge to be a well oiled machine. Things have to be laid out in stations, and each person at that station is an expert at their single task at hand. If you ever heard of the saying, "Worth the wait..." well, it's kinda like that. You'd be pretty pissed and/or suspicious if you your steak came out within minutes of ordering. Even though it'd be exactly what you ordered. You'd suspect it was someone else's steak, or that it was sitting there from another order. So what they used a salamander, then added grill marks real quick. That's not for the average customer to know.

What I do when I am inspired with a logo or whatever, I tell them I'll have "something" for them on Friday. I always say Friday, even if that means that it might be next Friday. I'll hmm and ahh, fake look at my calendar, suck in a few breaths as if I think it might be tight to squeeze them in so fast, because I might be sooo swamped. But I'll see what I can do by Friday. You'll be hearing from me then.

I then proceed to knock out their logo in record time. And it will sit there until Friday. And if I happen to get a bit of additional inspiration along the way, I can always open it back up and tinker. I've been doing this long enough that I know how fast I can knock things out. If I wanted to, I could wait until that Friday morning before even doing anything with their logo, give them a call as I'm finishing up.

I like the parable of the $300 screw. Broken machine, no one can fix it... finally a little old man comes forward and says that he can do it, but for $300. As their last hope, they agree. Old man walks in, pulls out a screw driver and turns one screw, machine fires to life, just like new. He asks for his $300. Flabbergasted, they balk at the price, and say, $300 for turning one screw? The old man simply replied, No... $1 to turn the screw, $299 for knowing which screw to turn.

 

[Stormyj]

Yo.
So, Ive been doing vinyl lettering and some graphics for about 4 years. Misc stuff, nothing really big but some that were ok. Mostly beer money. Ive recently lost my full time job, so am now focusing on the sign business. I have never had a logo but have kept my eye open for ideas that might look good for my business. I talked to a place about creating a logo for me, and she quoted me about $800. Uh, is that normal? Seems a bit steep and maybe im in the wrong business. Anyway. I threw something together and wanted some input on it. Use the red pen and grade accordingly. I already know it sucks, so you cant hurt a dead duck. I wanted to have something with lightning or whatever, but... I'm not that talented when it comes to graphic art.
Thanks in advance.

ps. I attached it as jpg. Should it be, or maybe eps, ai, etc?? btw the red is the cut line

View attachment 95833

Well, you all have given me quite a lot of enthusiasm and my wife and i have been playing around and used input from all your suggestions. My idea of the ship was to have a ship in a "Storm", but I think the ship added confusion, not only to this discussion, but also to the logo. I stepped away from that and came up with something else. I guess my main problem is im not trained at all in software programs such as CD, AI, Photoshop and the such. So, I can get my ideas on paper, but not into any software. This took me a bit longer than the original one I submitted, but I think reflects that. Input please.

Maybe "Signs" should be bigger??

 

[Biker Scout]

Italicize that "S" and I think you've got your starter logo. Run with it. (Not crazy about the color scheme, but it's OK) C+

 

[Rick]

Wow...I need to go rethink my entire life now after reading through this thread.

I guess my problem is I don't see value in design. I try to charge by the hour, because I'm mostly working for sign shops who need to turn around and charge their own customers. My prices are more or less dictated by the overall concept of design value in the sign industry.

If I even tried to charge $800 for a logo, I think I'd starve. But I only think that. Maybe I need to get over my own inhibitions and develop the confidence to charge the value of a logo.

Here's a question Rick: Say you charge $1000 for a logo design, but the design comes to you in 5 minutes. Do you send it off 5 min after getting paid? Or do you hold back a while so the client thinks it's taking longer and they're getting value for what they paid. Or do you just do some more concepts to fill in time?

I'm not being facetious either. I'm really curious. This is something I struggle with.

Neato,

No design takes 5 minutes to execute. In my case, if it did take 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 days, it's taken 20 years of experience plus those 5 minutes, 5 hours, or 5 days. Why penalize yourself for being good, or efficient. You didn't get that way by accident.

I don't think we're really any faster today than we used to be. In fact, I'd say we're the opposite. We budget 30 hours to design a brand. And 95% of the time - it takes that and perhaps even more. We put a lot more time and thought into our work than say 5 or 10 years ago. Which is why our rates have increased as well - to reflect the time it takes, and the value of the brand.

Would you rather do 4 logos for $200 a piece or one for $800? We do all start somewhere. My first logo sold for $25 in 1995.

Awesome post Dan..

Neato,

The design I did, took about 10 minutes to execute, then the wrap and
cards about a half hour... but thats not what actually happened...

I design ideas... not images... and usually try to convey that in the most
simplest form.

I saw this thread and was going to ignore it but let it stew in my head...
there are a lot of things rattling in my head, like, will we get this booth done.
I stumbled on a business card that had a logo in that similar shape, then dawned
on me, use that shape but make it look like an umbrella. I posted it,
got ticked, then designed the card and wrap for this show, then re-posted.

I usually break even or lose money on logos at 1000. I charge more now.
Most never come to me that fast. If this was my logo job, I would have
shown this, with a few other designs. Many, many times, I design
20-50 concepts in rapid succession then stew on it, the noodle with them
then only show a few designs. Some logos I will only design 2-3 and it can
be painful. I will not cut my price if I design too fast, but on the other hand
I will not penalize the client for using up my budget. Like Dan, I'm slower
than I used to be. I learned to design fast because that was what was required
at the sign shops I worked at

As far as pricing... I need to make a living, I need to pay for my software,
computers, printers, ink, taxes and all the stuff that deals with running a business.
I have nobody else that contributes to the household and no insurance benefits
plus having four kids, one starting college... my household needs dictate what I need
to make... then being 51, I have to worry about getting older.

My advice...
#1 - STOP THINKING LIKE A SIGN SHOP... (unless you are one)
Your sign shop clients... are they replicators or artists?

Replicators need to worry about the bottom line. Realize that that's all they will
pay... but don't use them as the benchmark for what you should charge.
Never use the lowest common denominator dictate what you should charge.

#2 - GET DANS BOOK - and maybe subscribe to design magazines like HOW,
Print or maybe Communication Arts. There is also a nice book called
"Talent is Not Enough" about running a design business... this is for small freelancer
like yourself to a design firm of a few people... a very good read.
http://www.amazon.com/Talent-Is-Not-Enough-Designers/dp/0321702026

#3 - Have a plan for how you want to work, what you will work on, and your goal
on what to charge. Then have something to fall back on related to design and master
that too.... I have drafting, sign design and layout and print layout. Right now, I
make way more money on that than anything else.

AND THE BIGGEST THING

#4 - Recognize your business and your family has needs too. Plan your future
growth and realize that 200 buck logos, even one a day will not sustain you
or your business in the long run.

 

[tattoo.dan]

Well, you all have given me quite a lot of enthusiasm and my wife and i have been playing around and used input from all your suggestions. My idea of the ship was to have a ship in a "Storm", but I think the ship added confusion, not only to this discussion, but also to the logo. I stepped away from that and came up with something else. I guess my main problem is im not trained at all in software programs such as CD, AI, Photoshop and the such. So, I can get my ideas on paper, but not into any software. This took me a bit longer than the original one I submitted, but I think reflects that. Input please.
View attachment 95964
Maybe "Signs" should be bigger??

Please just stop trying to recreate something "similar" to what Phillip(neato) did in 10 mins. shoot him a pm and see if he would like to sell it to you. I am not being disrespectful, but put his logo beside yours and you will be able to see the difference. You cannot even tell if that is a lightning bolt in the s hardly. I will drink more beer and check back later tonight to see if I can see it then! Seriously, shoot neato a pm if that is the concept you want to go with, I promise you will not be sorry.

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Sometimes it's hard to articulate some of the more comprehensive branding philosophies, and how it applies to small businesses. I was interviewed a few days ago for this publication, and I think they did a great job illustrating some of the concepts we believe in, and how important it is to small businesses. While the publication is for the green industry, the message is nearly identical whether you're a sign company or a landscaper. I think it's a good read if any of you would like a little more insight on how branding can add value to your business.

http://www.greenindustrypros.com/article/11299303/landscape-company-branding-logo-design

 

[Biker Scout]

Hey Dan, where can I get a copy of your newest book. I'd like to have it on my desk to show potential new clients. And if anybody asks why I charge so much for branding and marketing, I can have some external case studies to back it up, other than my own client list.

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Hey Dan, where can I get a copy of your newest book. I'd like to have it on my desk to show potential new clients. And if anybody asks why I charge so much for branding and marketing, I can have some external case studies to back it up, other than my own client list.

Via my site or on Amazon-