Now, that's low..................................

[Gino]

Just got this a few moments ago. How do people do this ?? More so...... why ??

I kept all the pertinent information off, as I don't want to get anyone in trouble, but still....... why ??

They also claim one-day turnaround at these prices. Sheesh.....

 

[Bretbyron]

To trade only? You forgot the "Free Hems and grommets".

Quantity Vs. Quality, the pendulum can swing very wide.


Maybe a sweat shop w/ illegals and Min. wage workers. Also, They might get their materials FOB.


Anyways, how else are we suppose to mark it up 300%

 

[ol'phart]

Volume

It must be that old business plan that says "we are going to lose our A$$ but make it up in volume." I prefer my new business plan that reads "If I'm going to make nothing, I'm going to do nothing."

 

[reQ]

$0.40 sq/ft WHAT?!

 

[FireSprint.com]

There's a fine line between a crappy business model and a good one. It all comes down to sales and production efficiency.

I think this is a really good reason why the trade printer/broker relationship is a solid one. For most of us, focusing on both a high level of personalized service and a mean, lean, high volume production environment isn't possible. You generally need to pick one or the other - but if you focus on service, and someone like [us] focuses on ever improving our efficiency, we can both win.

Just a crazy idea we had....

:Big Laugh

 

[OldPaint]

gona sound like an old man here but.......i gota do it)))
I REMEMBER WHEN....................
the only banner material was artist canvas, and i had to take it an auto upholstery shop to have it hemmed and i put my own grommets in it. then HAND LAYOUT AND LETTER WITH PAINT....... and the people who ordered it was glad to to wait a week and then pay me(very well)bout $8-10 a sq. ft. for the banner!!!!! a 2' x 8' banner at $10 a sq ft =$160.00. and out that ..........$120 WAS CLEAR PROFIT)))))))sure glad iam not in the middle of this .40 sq ft schit))))

 

[J Hill Designs]

a 2' x 8' banner at $10 a sq ft =$160.00. and out that ..........$120 WAS labor charge for the work you did

went ahead and fixed that for ya

 

[rjssigns]

Like I've said before many things in our industry have become commoditized. This leads to specialization, which in turn tends to drive down prices. The sub I use for large banners has material delivered by rail while ink is delivered by semi.

They print my large banners and multiple banner orders and deliver for less than my input costs. Their work is top drawer too.

Although I've talked about this before FireSprint hit on it. Customer Service. In a commodity based environment the only thing that separates you from the pack is outstanding customer service before, during and after the sale.

 

[OldPaint]

went ahead and fixed that for ya

NOT REALLY..........................YOU make the assumption..... I (LABORED) FOR ALL OF THAT $120))))
NOT SO...................take the time i spent on the banner, that would be LABOR...........and not materials.
1st off, with paint and brush..........and a simple banner text.......i probably took less time to paint it........THEN THE PRINTER DOES TO PRINT IT))))))))) i was fast and accurate..........single coat and it was done. my LABOR time including grommets maybe 1 HOURS)))))) so $120 an hour........IN MY POCKET $40 for material and grommets(and that is high end material))))) no lease payment, no laminator, no ink cost, NO ELECTRICITY))))

 

[BigfishDM]

I wonder how much they charge for shipping and handling, you know kinda like the infomercials where the price is too good to be true then you find out your paying an extremely inflated shipping or handling fee. I am doing a promo on banner where you get the rolls for FREE but have to pay $300 in handling fees lol

 

[Gino]

Never used Artist's Canvas for signs.... too expensive and never heard of it in the sign world, except the stuff we used for fine painting, but that we would gesso, then start painting our pictures.

The farthest back I remember was using something called 'Columbus Cloth'. It was just like canvas, but received paint very well without wicking out. Bought it by the roll. Had a kinda tan-ish look to it. It wasn't perfectly white........ heck, nothing was white back then. Even paper was somewhat dull and off white.

Later years, they started making canvas banners, but then American Banner, and some others came along and changed the industry and started making it with a vinyl base. Not long after they made it, you had to tie coat it. Then it would receive the oil-based paints the old way. Otherwise, your paint would never dry. Then to save money, you could buy the banners and coat them yourself. Yeah, right.... save money. Since they used the vinyl banner material, they had to make it stronger to withstand the wind... as most banners are somewhat in the air.... flapping around. They introduced scrim to the arsenal. Then, they added weights by ounces and other means. Then gave options on how to finish them. No one used the proper finishing methods, so most banners were failing. That's when you saw a quick decline in banner companies, cause they were getting blamed for early failures, cause the hacks were on the scene and banners were getting made cheaply and were worthless.

Now, most everyone has a printer or access to one through a wholesaler and make them any way they want. But from over 40 years ago, 1972, til now.... the cost of banner material has gone down drastically and the cost of producing them has gone up. I still don't understand how something that we could easily get $10 to $20 a square foot to much more if there were pictorials on it has gone so low. It's sad when you've seen the show for over 40 years and all you have to show is stories, because no one really cares about how it was made back then or how we got from point 'A' to point 'B'.

The things we can now do by machine are wonderful these days, but before all these machines.... many of us here paved the way for a better industry, only to be made fun of with prices like 40¢. That was and is still considered CHUMP change. I don't care how much you buy by the train load, by the tractor trailer..... it should only be discounted, not free.

If we all kept to a fair balance and would work together, we could all be doing much better. However, with buying off the internet or like Staples [as in another thread].... we just have to move along with the hand we're dealt, no matter how sh!tty it is.

40¢ sheesh........... :dog42​

 

[Typestries]

The additional problem is, prices are going DOWN, and quality is going UP. That's because the big machine manufacturers are out AGGRESSIVELY selling iron thats fast and prints beautifully. And they don't give one iota what they do to the industry, so long as they are moving presses.

Take any of the major PSP players, they buy 2,3, 4 or more $575k flatbed hybrids or RTR's and spread them around the country. They're super fast, and thanks to amazing R & D by the like of Vutek and HP, they print AMAZING stuff at CRAZY speeds that easily exceeds the speed and now quality and versatility of the 60" printers we all have

So recently I'm at EFI Vutek in NH, doing a demo, figuring out how to pull off a $500k printer that's literally AMAZING, so we can provide the BEST products to our trade clients. I'm looking at one, and yet there are four of these machines on the floor going to a national wholesaler. All on one PO, just like that. Talk about one huge impact to production capacity and instantly adding excess. Excess capacity=lower prices to fill that capacity and pay that bill.

Step a little farther down the demo room, and looking at the $750k EFI's, they print so fast, screen printing prices will soon be handily eclipsed, with full color beating out even 1 color screen jobs. I literally watched a full 4 x 8 be printed, and contour cut into 10 custom shaped 18 x 24's in 4 minutes. All fully automated. All totally amazing quality. Add a software front end to that, and you eliminate order entry and preflight. More lower cost=lower prices.

Try to remain competitive—this is only going to continue. Specialize and super serve. Banners and yard signs are DONE, much other stuff isn't far behind. Super cheap direct to consumer will become way more prevalent.

This industry is changing faster than ever. EFI and HP are leading the charge along with the other major machine manufacturers. Adapt and change, or die.

And sadly, expect more of ads like the OP posted.

 

[player]

Are you saying my SP540V will be obsolete some day?

 

[OldPaint]

gino........the so called canvas i bought for banners(1980's) was purchased at an ART SUPPLY store. was not brown or off white. didnt need to gesso it........they had it on rolls 2, 3, 4 ft wide......wasnt cheap, but took oneshot in one coat.
when i bought it, my auto upholstery friend was on the way home. 5 minutes to hem it. but then getting $8-10 sq ft was worth paying for good material.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

gino........the so called canvas i bought for banners(1980's) was purchased at an ART SUPPLY store. was not brown or off white. didnt need to gesso it........they had it on rolls 2, 3, 4 ft wide......wasnt cheap, but took oneshot in one coat.
when i bought it, my auto upholstery friend was on the way home. 5 minutes to hem it. but then getting $8-10 sq ft was worth paying for good material.

Honestly, comparing the way things used to be done by hand to the way they are done by machines now is pretty darn silly.
The machines & technology replaced the skilled human in so many facets.
You can teach many people to run a machine in a short amount of time with little practice. (as opposed to the dedication it takes to be a sign painter)
You can send files to print while you go home and eat dinner.
There is just no comparison. Yes, those skills were cool and stuff but there is a reason many had to evolve with the technology in the sign industry.
A simple 2 word text banner...maybe you can do it faster with paint.....BUT
A full color one with logo, photo of product in the background, drop shadows, transparencies, etc in a matter of minutes...not on your life.
It's not even worth doing die-cut vinyl on banners anymore when you can just hit print for less than a buck a sq.ft.
I agree, gone are the "good 'ol days". But it's usually better for the masses.
Respectfully

 

[J Hill Designs]

NOT REALLY..........................YOU make the assumption..... I (LABORED) FOR ALL OF THAT $120))))
NOT SO...................take the time i spent on the banner, that would be LABOR...........and not materials.

and driving to buy the banner material, driving to get it hemmed, etc etc etc

 

[Gino]

Honestly, comparing the way things used to be done by hand to the way they are done by machines now is pretty darn silly.
The machines & technology replaced the skilled human in so many facets.
You can teach many people to run a machine in a short amount of time with little practice. (as opposed to the dedication it takes to be a sign painter)
You can send files to print while you go home and eat dinner.
There is just no comparison. Yes, those skills were cool and stuff but there is a reason many had to evolve with the technology in the sign industry.
A simple 2 word text banner...maybe you can do it faster with paint.....BUT
A full color one with logo, photo of product in the background, drop shadows, transparencies, etc in a matter of minutes...not on your life.
It's not even worth doing die-cut vinyl on banners anymore when you can just hit print for less than a buck a sq.ft.
I agree, gone are the "good 'ol days". But it's usually better for the masses.
Respectfully

Respectfully taken.

Pushing the buttons and applying these different wraps or vinyl clad boards or even using a flatbed and eliminating all the monkey business is fine and dandy, but there are some fundamentals which you are missing.

It takes a certain amount of talent to make a good layout/design/logo. As far as I know, there ain't no machine that can do that, yet. There are machines to enable the non-artist creators and others with limited skill power, but nothing to replace it. Today, if you have an idea, but cannot relay it to someone, you're sunk, unless you can put it into some software package and do it yourself. Granted, gone are the days of someone scribbling something down on a napkin or the back of a pizza box and creating a masterpiece out of it, but on the other hand.... we now have thousands, if not millions of so-called graphiX artists copying everything on the internet to each other to old school ideas. They don't seem to have the art in their heads, let alone the ideas. No one seems to start with something new. Everything is being duplicated and then argued if it's theirs or not.

Anyway, we could create volumes of books on this one part alone, but there are other things the push-button society tends to miss.

Today's people generally don't know what materials to use. You can easily see this, by the 1,000's of threads right here on s101, on this subject all by itself. Not mocking them, but no one bothers to learn with hands on, but just want answers thrown at them.... with little, to no concern if the answer fits their needs or not. Not to mention, some of the answers are downright ridiculous, but who cares, as long as it's answered ??

It's a poor society we live in when even the professionals don't know what they're doing and admit it right here on s101. People don't think you have to do this or do that in order to instal a sign legally. Do they care ?? No, not at all. They push aside 25 perfectly good answers, until they get the one they want, which says..... just go do it. Ya know how, who's gonna stop ya ?? I never do it.

I was just bidding on a truck for a customer about 2 weeks ago. The guy that is probably gonna get the job is not using proper vinyl, no laminate and their printer is a 30" Roland. I said to the customer, you realize without lamination, you really don't have a chance ?? Oh, no I do. They assured me they were using a 10 year vinyl and it doesn't need laminating.

You're in the wrap business. How well is a solvent printed vinyl gonna last without laminate and twice as many seams on a full blown Sprinter ?? My bid was fair and I made a profit. This other guy is doing it for $1,300...... outside and has to design it, yet. He can do exactly what you said. He can push a button, but before that and after that..... he hasn't a clue.

No disrespect, but ya know how they say certain people shouldn't multiply..... well, certain other people shouldn't be working on other peoples 10's of thousands of dollar vehicles, that's only going to butcher them. Design-wise, material-wise and applique-wise.


Again, 40¢ a square on banner material is useless. I'm glad I'm on my way out, but I never thought it would deteriorate to this degree.

Sometimes I think to myself..... that frickin' Gerber guy sure messed up a good thing.​

 

[TimToad]

and driving to buy the banner material, driving to get it hemmed, etc etc etc

You and I can reasonably add lots of "etc." to the list of things that should be included in the list of overhead costs.

I can see why there is so much emphasis on business advocates stressing the need to fully account for ALL of one's overhead when calculating a shop rate, pricing, etc.

I suppose I should ask OldPaint this, but was he only working out in the sun as his only light source? In a public park he wasn't paying any rent or mortgage on? Never driving anywhere to pick up materials or deliver finished product?

The problem I see is that many in the old "workin' out of my garage or back of my truck" equals zero overhead business model have gone through their working lives thinking they were a lot more profitable than they actually are because they aren't including the countless costs and expenses even "working out of the garage" incur.

 

[Marlene]

Respectfully taken.

Pushing the buttons and applying these different wraps or vinyl clad boards or even using a flatbed and eliminating all the monkey business is fine and dandy, but there are some fundamentals which you are missing.

It takes a certain amount of talent to make a good layout/design/logo. As far as I know, there ain't no machine that can do that, yet. There are machines to enable the non-artist creators and others with limited skill power, but nothing to replace it. Today, if you have an idea, but cannot relay it to someone, you're sunk, unless you can put it into some software package and do it yourself. Granted, gone are the days of someone scribbling something down on a napkin or the back of a pizza box and creating a masterpiece out of it, but on the other hand.... we now have thousands, if not millions of so-called graphiX artists copying everything on the internet to each other to old school ideas. They don't seem to have the art in their heads, let alone the ideas. No one seems to start with something new. Everything is being duplicated and then argued if it's theirs or not.

Anyway, we could create volumes of books on this one part alone, but there are other things the push-button society tends to miss.

Today's people generally don't know what materials to use. You can easily see this, by the 1,000's of threads right here on s101, on this subject all by itself. Not mocking them, but no one bothers to learn with hands on, but just want answers thrown at them.... with little, to no concern if the answer fits their needs or not. Not to mention, some of the answers are downright ridiculous, but who cares, as long as it's answered ??

It's a poor society we live in when even the professionals don't know what they're doing and admit it right here on s101. People don't think you have to do this or do that in order to instal a sign legally. Do they care ?? No, not at all. They push aside 25 perfectly good answers, until they get the one they want, which says..... just go do it. Ya know how, who's gonna stop ya ?? I never do it.

I was just bidding on a truck for a customer about 2 weeks ago. The guy that is probably gonna get the job is not using proper vinyl, no laminate and their printer is a 30" Roland. I said to the customer, you realize without lamination, you really don't have a chance ?? Oh, no I do. They assured me they were using a 10 year vinyl and it doesn't need laminating.

You're in the wrap business. How well is a solvent printed vinyl gonna last without laminate and twice as many seams on a full blown Sprinter ?? My bid was fair and I made a profit. This other guy is doing it for $1,300...... outside and has to design it, yet. He can do exactly what you said. He can push a button, but before that and after that..... he hasn't a clue.

No disrespect, but ya know how they say certain people shouldn't multiply..... well, certain other people shouldn't be working on other peoples 10's of thousands of dollar vehicles, that's only going to butcher them. Design-wise, material-wise and applique-wise.


Again, 40¢ a square on banner material is useless. I'm glad I'm on my way out, but I never thought it would deteriorate to this degree.

Sometimes I think to myself..... that frickin' Gerber guy sure messed up a good thing.​

I agree with a lot of what you are saying but don't assume that a person who can paint also has design skills and those who can't don't. I have seen from the very members who preach hand painted some of the worst layout skills I've ever seen. the skills are not given to the person thru a machine or a brush both are just tools used. as far as banners go, I too had to start by getting them made from canvas and had sail maker do the sewing. all I have to say about that is thank technology for getting us out of those dark ages. I don't long for the good ole days as some do

 

[OldPaint]

I suppose I should ask OldPaint this, but was he only working out in the sun as his only light source? In a public park he wasn't paying any rent or mortgage on? Never driving anywhere to pick up materials or deliver finished product?

The problem I see is that many in the old "workin' out of my garage or back of my truck" equals zero overhead business model have gone through their working lives thinking they were a lot more profitable than they actually are because they aren't including the countless costs and expenses even "working out of the garage" incur.
GEE..HOW'D YOU KNOW THAT????????
i PAINTED more stuff in the sunlight then you would believe. BOATS..... cant bring everyone of em to the shop)))))
specially them big ones)))))) STOCK CARS, on a good day i could hand letter 3 complete cars))))) $3-400 each, no ELECTRICITY, NO VINYL, and my cost of doing business for the day was some mineral spirits, maybe a qt of paint($8.00 then) no shop rent.............say the 3 cars i got $300 each......8 hours of DAYLIGHT, $20 in expenses(including lunch and gas)hehehehehehe.......so i made $880.00......yea we didnt make any money.......wit all them other costs)))))))
back to BOATS..... do a transom lettering.......most of the time NO PATTERN, designed on the spot....(in my head computer)output with my fingers....workin out in the sunlight, in shorts, and sunglasses..gettin a tan.........and cost of this, again maybe $20 in materials........$200-300 for couple hours work...........

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Respectfully taken.

Pushing the buttons ......................................................... a good thing.

I agree with you 100% on the talent required part for design and a good "know how" on running the business right. Layout & materials are KEY!
I didn't address that element of it but was taking to task the "Hourly Labor & Profit margin" rant.
What the market wants: Full color, more affordable...& now!
That's what technology does that no man (or woman) can offer.

That scenario you described with the Lowball Sprinter van using unlaminated calendered 30" wide panels....I must have the guy's twin brother in my town.
There is a shop that did the same thing exactly...and it looked sooo bad.