Off Gassing - recommendations

[DesireeM]

Hi,

I read through a thread about off gassing but I still have some questions.

We print using EcoSol inks. What would you suggest is a good amount of time to let the prints off gas?
Do regular solvent inks need more time?

What can happen if you don't let them off gas?

We've been letting them sit overnight before laminating so roughly 18-24 hrs. We've "cheated" a couple times out of necessity and only let them sit for about 3 hours before laminating and I didn't notice a difference...but maybe the consequences come later down the line...in longevity of the product perhaps?

Any opinions would be great!

 

[formanek]

Hi,

I read through a thread about off gassing but I still have some questions.

We print using EcoSol inks. What would you suggest is a good amount of time to let the prints off gas?
Do regular solvent inks need more time?

What can happen if you don't let them off gas?

We've been letting them sit overnight before laminating so roughly 18-24 hrs. We've "cheated" a couple times out of necessity and only let them sit for about 3 hours before laminating and I didn't notice a difference...but maybe the consequences come later down the line...in longevity of the product perhaps?

Any opinions would be great!

If you search there is a million threads about this. However.... everyone has an opinion and differs. I use Avery MPI ez and eco inks. I allow about an hour is all. 40 semi trailers and counting over 2.5 years with ZERO failures in MN climate.

 

[johnnysigns]

I've never seen failures from not outgassing, but I have dealt with lots of prints that are really gummy on the adhesive side and will even shed some glue when you're pretacking the panels up temporarily.

 

[Snydo]

I believe the amount of ink coverage is a huge factor...light coverage lam immediately...full coverage wait a day. That being said, I have been printing and laming immediately for years with a full solvent machine and for the last year on an eco sol as well and am yet to see an issue I can attribute to out gassing.

 

[Techman]

outgassing is a myth.

 

[Joe Diaz]

We use EcoSol on Oracal. We have found that how soon you laminate and/or install after the print comes out of the printer won't affect longevity at all. It doesn't matter what the ink coverage is either. However, the amount of time you wait does effect the repositionable properties of the graphics and also the ease of removing graphics later on. So if your going to do wraps, we have found that it helps, just a little, to let your prints sit for a while. If you are installing on a flat surface, laminate it and install it as soon as you can, and you should be fine.

 

[John Butto]

Think outgassing is the wrong term concerning the ink, eco or full solvent, coming in contact with the vinyl and then applying another vinyl over the top.
If you print a 12" square of color, any color, on the vinyl and then peel that piece off of the backing paper you will see that the chemical reaction is still taking place by the material being soft and pliable. Over a period of time this process stops and the inks are set. Eco solvent does not penetrate the vinyl as deep as solvent does so it takes longer for the ink and vinyl to "meld" together. If you put a laminate over the top right away not only do you not let this chemical process not finish the way it was intended, but also the adhesive and vinyl from the laminate will be added to the drying time and chemical reaction. You have to experiment with your own printer and materials to find out the best time to time to put the two materials together. Some print in areas where there is heat and some not. That is why Joe Diaz talks about removal later on because the chemicals melded together downwards because something was put over the top to early. Latex does not "meld" the same as the solvents because the high heat has already dried the latex ink which is part of the process of it getting it to grab on to the substrate. So do your own experimenting and put this "outgassing" to rest.

 

[MikePro]

i'm a big fan of slowing down the print speed, to allow more "air time" before the print hits the roll. I'll usually stand the roll up on end and open up the "gills" a bit, and let sit overnight and never an issue laminating/applying in the a.m.
only issues with laminating right off the printer, is that the material is gooey and a PITA to install.... especially if tiling is involved. If you go this route, I highly recommend using masking tape on your tiles/overlaps to keep from stretching the perimeter of your print. I've also heard that not letting your print outgas will cause the laminate to delaminate, but I have yet to see this from any of my "quick-flips".

- - - Updated - - -

i'm a big fan of slowing down the print speed, to allow more "air time" before the print hits the roll. I'll usually stand the roll up on end and open up the "gills" a bit, and let sit overnight and never an issue laminating/applying in the a.m.
only issues with laminating right off the printer, is that the material is gooey and a PITA to install.... especially if tiling is involved. If you go this route, I highly recommend using masking tape on your tiles/overlaps to keep from stretching the perimeter of your print. I've also heard that not letting your print outgas will cause the laminate to delaminate, but I have yet to see this from any of my "quick-flips".

 

[DesireeM]

see that the chemical reaction is still taking place by the material being soft and pliable.

i've noticed this with clear prints mostly. I have to wait a couple hours before peeling off the backing or the vinyl "puckers". I have suspected for a while that off gassing may not be as critical to the process as I was told by my predecessor. I know the ink at least needs the time to dry but its usually almost completely dry once it reaches the take up reel.(depending on ink density)I agree it's probably worth testing out if it affects the ease of install though. Thanks everyone.

 

[DesireeM]

Thanks- I agree there is a chemical process going on that shouldn't be interfered with. The question is how long it takes for that process to finish. I will definitely have to take some time and experiment.

 

[DesireeM]

If you search there is a million threads about this. However.... everyone has an opinion and differs. I use Avery MPI ez and eco inks. I allow about an hour is all. 40 semi trailers and counting over 2.5 years with ZERO failures in MN climate.

Yeah I searched off gas but only found one thread- I guess I didn't search the right keywords.

 

[formanek]

Yeah I searched off gas but only found one thread- I guess I didn't search the right keywords.

OUT gas. Not OFF

 

[Custom_Grafx]

Here are all the posts about outgassing from signs101. Tip for you in future... go to google, in the search box, type "site:signs101.com [type your search term here]" and you'll find.

https://www.google.com.au/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&ie=UTF-8#safe=active&hl=en&sclient=psy-ab&q=+site:signs101.com+outgassing&oq=+site:signs101.com+outgassing&gs_l=serp.3...6110.7737.0.8551.9.9.0.0.0.3.287.1674.0j7j2.9.0...0.0...1c.1.9.psy-ab.nJEr2ItxGFw&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_cp.r_qf.&fp=2c2e584435e3fce4&biw=1280&bih=687&ion=1

 

[DesireeM]

OUT gas. Not OFF

Yeah...I guess it helps if I'm searching the right term.

 

[michsanford]

We also use Ecosol on our Roland. We have had several "mishaps" from not out gassing long enough. We got in a bad habit of laminating straight of the printer, and we have had a few jobs come back to us the repair. It will start to peel on the edges, or at least it did for us!

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

Anyone that says out gassing doesn't make a difference in the install is ignorant of the proven facts. No, it won't make it fall off the vehicle once applied. Yes it will affect the adhesion intensity.
These are tried and proven by installers AND the manufacturers. Think about this...what does it benefit a manufacturer to require out gassing if it didn't make the process better? It's actually detrimental to
their selling point to require it.

 

[Techman]

I and many others are hardly ignorant. Nor are the many others who print and find no problems with lam on a print without waiting a couple of days or even a half day with eco solvent printers.
Hence, I feel almost all outgas problems are urban legend and myth. Most cases of print failure is the result of the user. Not the fault of some vapor eating away at the product.
We all know that vinyl is not airtight. It is full of holes and air will escape from behind bubbles. Yes? I am not talking about blisters. I am talking about the tiny pockets of air and sometimes tiny pockets of positioning fluid. Wait a couple of hours and they will be gone. Every one knows that. Why should it be any different from the solvent vapor escaping out wards just as air does. There is no difference. If there was a real problem the we would all see pockets of gas building up under the lam. Has any one actually observed a pocket of vapor build up under a lam? Has any one ever observed a pickle skin? No one has.

Personally I have never observed a full size panel printed instantly. It takes a while for those panels to be printed. Yes? A 3x5 panel takes how long to print? How about a 4x 12 panel. Yes that takes much longer. If there was a true problem with vapor causing some malfunction we would see it appear at the end of a lammed print and not at the beginning of a print. The end has had no time to dry while the starting end has at least 45 minutes more time to dry. It has a head start on the drying process.

Next. The layer of ink is so minute so very thin that it dries very fast. Ever try to measure how much ink is actually used? It is a very small amount including all 4 colors. On average there is no more than a couple milliliters of ink total all colors on those prints. A heavy print could use maybe 3ml?

We lose more ink in a few spilled drops than is used on a foot of print.

Finally, off gas never seems to destroy the lam adhesive which we all know is right on the ink. It only seems to damage the glue on the opposite side of the print? Why is that?
And to the point of the vinyl feeling soft if not allowed to dry for a few days before lam is applied. We have all had more than a few days we had to put off laying regular high grade CAST vinyl on a warm day. It was to soft. So did the temp of the air have more of an effect than applying a lam to a print? I know a guy that used to apply printed vinyl outside in the sun. He could teach a sailor how to cuss on a few warm days. I know we all are chuckling about that because we all been there.

I propose a test. Take a sheet of vinyl and brush on some ink. How long does it take before the vinyl melts? How long before it gets soggy? It doesn't? Does the ink dry before we can observe any softening of the vinyl or damage to the adhesive? Do the same and then lam it when it gets dry enough for the lam to stick? Does it get soggy? Does it damage the adhesive? I think that would be more telling than some posts on a forum thread.

 

[Techman]

double
oops

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

You ask questions..."have you ever..." then answer by saying "no". As you read many above posts of people who DO see a complete difference in the adhesion when it is not out gassed vs when it is.
Not to mention the research done by the manufacturers who have nothing to gain by such a claim. The lack of out gassing is actually a selling point for latex inks.
Many with install experience (cold & warm temps) say we notice an absolute difference. We aren't lying.
So that either makes your claim ignorant due to lack of variable experience or dishonest. I don't think you are being dishonest. I just think your experience hasn't encompassed the variables that our obviously has. From what I understand, you aren't doing many vehicle wraps and are laying vinyl down on flat surfaces mostly.
It's nothing personal...but as wrappers, we are sensitive to when adhesion changes.

 

[DesireeM]

Is there possibly a difference in experiences with out-gassing because some people use Solvent inks and some use Eco Sol? I've never worked with pure Solvent inks but I was told they have a very strong chemical smell so maybe they soften or change the vinyl more than Eco Sol?

Also, we print and then laminate our "everyday" vinyls right away for coroplast signs, backlit boxes, bus panels etc... and never had any problems.(Or maybe there are some factors I'm not considering)