• I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...

One of "those" guys...software? What's that?

andy

New Member
Thanks all for the replies, welcomes, and warnings.

This isn't the end of the world for me if it doesn't fly, just something I have wanted to do, and currently have a market for. Industry is dead here, and our economy is low...many don't have the need/funds for the fancy banners and such, but are requesting a decent vinyl door sign, coroplast event signage, etc...at a decent price. I think I can offer that. I have two other companies that I operate on a daily basis, one service, one retail, so I have the business end of it down.

Binki nailed down my addon to the vinyl, as I have a decent market for simple shirts...so yeah, a heat press is on the agenda as well.

What I do have going for me on the positive end, is a friend/employee who was working for the overpriced signmaker and knows (some of) the ins and outs of signmaking..I am really hoping my retired guy will miss it enough that he will come help out just to keep busy ;)

But don't worry, you will know how I am doing by my posts and questions here...lol

Mate, concentrate on your existing business, see if you can at least make a success of something you understand. If you can't give up and go find a job somewhere. Don't come round to our industry and drop your lowball turd on our carpet.
 

CentralSigns

New Member
Providing healthy competition isn't bad but the way you sounded it was more than that. If the opposition is in fact gouging and not even near the going price for the products close by, then I don't blame you for deciding to compete with him. I had the same situation when I started, local guy charging double the price of a couple hundred miles away, and all the work going there.
 

wildside

New Member
sell on quality....not price...

i know of many cases that we have been quite abit higher, even double on multiple jobs, and we still get the jobs, why? We will build you a quality sign and put our name behind it.

good luck in your endeavors of cornering a market that is flooded with incompetence with $400 chinese cutters in a basement
 

Bigdawg

Just Me
If you were/are in my area I would be the high quote...

I don't compete on price as a rule... and we back that up with quality. Do you even understand why the pricing was different? You compared Apples to Oranges I bet...

Betting the $200, $250 guys were giving you calendared vinyl.. the $450 guy was probably giving you cast vinyl that will last. You don't even know enough yet to ask the right questions or know that, in all likelihood, you weren't being gouged... You saw dollar amounts and that's all that mattered. Dammit it's too much. I think I'm gonna be a sign guy since we make sooooo much money.

And how exactly do you think you AREN'T taking anything off your local sign guys plate? Do you honestly think he doesn't cut vinyl and just prints it all? The"gap" you claim to be filling isn't really there. The "gap" is the difference between quality and cheapo stuff. The "gap" is a perception of what you want to pay vs. what it's really worth or needs to be sold at to maintain a profit.

I understand why people are insulted at what you've posted. Coming in with a "you guys are all overpriced and since I know soooooo much about signs (having bought them and all) I know that I can do it much cheaper since I don't really have to make a profit. I can just screw everyone else and go back to my other businesses when the economy comes back."

This isn't NHB so I can't give you the rest of my thoughts...
 

iSign

New Member
I understand why people are insulted at what you've posted. Coming in with a "you guys are all overpriced and since I know soooooo much about signs (having bought them and all) I know that I can do it much cheaper since I don't really have to make a profit. I can just screw everyone else and go back to my other businesses when the economy comes back."

oh.. and you left out:

"now, help me do it!"
 

SignManiac

New Member
My first eighteen years I learned the craft and skills in New York, the east end to be precise in the famed Hamptons. I did top quality work and got top dollar and charged like a professional, even though I worked from my house. I could have undercut the large sign shops because my overhead was far lower, but why would/should I sell for less when I was capable of getting what the big guys were getting? No difference in quality of work, or service. It was my understanding that the reason to be in business for yourself was to make a better living, instead of working for someone else and making them rich off of you.

Eighteen years later I moved to Florida. I was told by every sign guy in Florida that I could never get New York prices here. So here I am, turning out the same high quality work using the best materials. Why would I charge less for the same product, quality and service that I did in New York? Cost of living was about the same so why sell cheaper?

Well I didn't adjust my prices and all of my clients could see the apparent difference in what I sold compared to all the other Florida shops. They were happy to have someone who knew what the hell they were doing for a change.

When I got here, I was the only shop who had a plotter and knew what I was doing. About ten years later, all the new plotter guys starting cropping up. You know how they got their start? They undercut me. They told many of my customers that they could letter their trucks for half my price by "copying" my work. Well I slowly lost my vinyl customers to the new guys who were low balling. In a year, most of them went out of business and my old clients would come back. I'd ask them why they were back and they said it was because the guy they used after me was no longer in business. I said to them, well if they had charged enough to make a profit, they might still be around.

The customer understood what I meant by that. Like Bigdawg said in her post, how do you know whether the quote you got was out of line or not? You need more info, but the bottom line is that you're cheap. Just wait until the next guys says that you're a rip off????
 

Joe Diaz

New Member
As I mentioned, his prices were double that of 3 other shops I got quotes from. These are all professional sign shops. Why so much compared?? This is a relatively small town, word travels quickly. He is pricing himself out of work, people are going out of town to get things done.

There could be several reasons for this.
1. The other shop has better quality and service therefor is priced accordingly.
If his prices are higher, it does mean he is pricing himself out of work, but not out of business. He is pricing himself out of jobs for people who are shopping for cost not quality, but if he does good work he still is getting plenty (or enough) customers that are willing to pay for the better quality. This means he is doing less jobs, but could be making more then the shops that are focused on quantity.

2. The other 3 shops have gone into pricing wars, and aren't pricing out jobs based on what they are worth but based on what is less then the other 2 shops. If those shops are doing that, chances are they are cutting corners somewhere to stay competitive, or they aren't thinking straight and enjoy losing money.

3 He isn't better than the other shops but thinks he is. In which case, eventually his business will fail. Ask yourself, how long has this shop been in business. If they have been in business for a long time see #1.

4. He is one of a very small group of hobbyist that have other sources of income and price the services higher then normal on purpose because they can't handle or don't need the larger work load and want a higher return on the work he is doing. If they don't get enough work, that is fine, as I said, they have other sources of income. In my opinion this is better than the much larger group of hobbyist who do work for dirt cheap.

As I mentioned, I already have retail space that is catering to a dying forest industry...I already have hydro bills, I already have internet bills, I already have employees.
If you are getting into the business, so you know, be prepared to add a lot more overhead to that list.



The gouging type of business operation pisses me off. Charge everyone double because they have no other choice. Again, this is a small town, options are limited and I see it happening with several businesses that have a monopoly. This is one that I have an interest in, and would like to learn.
You may think they are gouging because they can, but my guess is if you do join the ranks of other sign makers, in time you will understand why sign makers rightfully charge what they do. Just a warning, If you are getting in the business because of this reason, you are about to learn one expensive lesson.



I don't feel I will be lowballing if my pricing will be on par with other sign shops. I just won't be gouging as the local guy is.
You could be a low-baller, you might not. It depends on the quality of work you do. And not just the quality of the products you produce, but the quality of your service.

Either way, you shouldn't be setting your prices based on what others charge, They aren't you. The could be better, they could be worst. They could be making money, the could be losing money. They might be using higher quality products and offering more services and have higher overhead, or they could be using low quality products, and working out of their garage. You should set your prices based on what your services are worth and what will keep you in business/make money. Again these can be expensive lessons to learn. Be prepared.

Like I said, this won't be the first mistake I make in this whole process...my intent wasn't to come off that way, only to give some background information.
That is fine, but be careful how you word your questions, you don't want to come off like an ex customer that doesn't respect what we do and thinks they can do a better job with absolutely no experience or background. If you show respect to this trade and the hard working people in it, and show that you want to get into the business for the right reasons, I have no doubt that you will get more help then you will know what to do with.



So, providing healthy competition isn't professional? I hardly think I will be taking food from his family...dramatics aren't necessary. He does the full color banners, he does highway signs, he does full vehicle decals, motorcycles, etc...he has a full plate. I am planning on sticking to affordable one color vinyl, and heat press transfers eventually.
I think that is a good idea. Start small at first.
 

Newsignguy

New Member
Joe, thank you for the thought out reply. I am the first to admit I don't know what I am doing, and am actively trying to learn and seek out help. I thought that is why I was coming here.

As I stated in my opening post, I probably went about this all wrong, and have obviously offended some here. That wasn't my intent. But sometimes, you guys need to give some one the benefit of the doubt.


This will be my last discussion regarding "mr. overpriced" (IMO)...

I have known the "overpriced" sign guy most of my adult life...as a personal friend, as a retailer, and as a customer of his. His time is worth more than anyone elses out there. Always has been. And that is fine, he is welcome to that attitude....I have plenty of signs made by him out of plain 3mm vinyl on coroplast that I paid waaaay too much for as I have learned from buying other signs. I know many others that feel the same way. His work on vehicles and road signs is excellent from what I can see driving by...(except when the signs all fall over in the wind..which happens at least once or twice a year..could use some structural engineering help, but that is a moot point). What he charges for that stuff, I couldn't tell you. That isn't where I am intersted in going at this point in time. When it comes to basic vinyl though, he is still charging 2 to 3x as much as anyone else. There are many companies (small town, so I know many of them) that are going out of town to get basic stuff done because it costs them half of the price.


Joe, you mentioned overhead...yeah, I am well aware of business overhead..lol..I currently have over 50k as it is. I understand turn over, I understand shipping costs, and shop rates.

I have spent the last 6 months designing and hand painting signage for a disc golf course...very basic I will say..but enough to know what kind of time is involved in layout (especially for a newbie). It was also enough to know that I really appreciate good art, and quite miss the old days when I used to do a lot of painting.

My pricing will reflect the cost of vinyl with markup, it will reflect my time for design, it will reflect my shop rate (which currently runs at 65.00/hr). I have looked at the signs I got done (those 3 door for example), and figure my price will be right on par with the other shops in that regard. I expect some (alot?) of screwups in the beginning on my part to get a job right, which I am ok with as well.

Someone was brilliant enough to point out the quality of 3mm vinyl. I appreciate good sarcasm, so I will acknowledge it. I am not good enough to learn with anything but low end materials at this point. I am not out to do multi color/cut stuff..yet? I don't want to ruin reflective, or thicker vinyl. My goal isn't to design and build masterpieces overnight....my goal is to learn the signage art. This is a first step.

I have every bit of respect for signmakers, don't get me wrong...but after being self employed for over 15 years... I also have enough business and common sense to know when people are getting bent over...especially myself.
 

Joe Diaz

New Member
I don't know "mr. overpriced" like you do. I do know that some consider us "mr. overpriced" so I'm seeing it from our point of view. If "mr. overpriced" is like us, if he were to spend his time trying to compete at the level of other coroplast driven companies rather than spend time on all those other better paying jobs that you listed, he would be losing money. His rate takes into consideration his entire operation. What he is doing isn't gouging.

Keep this in mind: You brought up 65.00/hr. Let's say you did big, high dollar, architectural signs at $65.00/hour. Now, for the sake of argument, let's say your competition was selling coroplast signs at 45.00/hour. Would you choose to lower your hourly rate for just coroplast signs and banners to stay competitive with everyone else in your area (who god knows how they came up with that rate)? Or would you keep your rate the same for every job and not worry about losing a few coroplast jobs to the other 3 shops that are in the middle of a price war, while you focus on your architectural signs?

In other words you don't hire Dan Sawatzky (look him up) to make real estate signs.

I do know some companies that give discounts on that type of work in order to sell larger jobs, but they don't offer those prices normally.

I say this because I want you to understand why his prices might be higher but it isn't some devious plot to over charge people. I also say this because we (like many other sign shops) have had customers that have presented the same arguments you are posting today. I truly believe this is something you will find out in time, just like those other customers have discovered by thinking we were somehow unfairly charging them, only to later find out for themselves how that isn't the case.

Also, keep this in mind: if you are hand making these banners and coroplast signs at $65.00 an hour with a plotter and vinyl and limited experience, We can outsource our coroplast signs to the many print companies that specialize in printing directly on coroplast, then mark it up, and still sell them for less then it would cost us to produce them in vinyl at $65.00 an hour with many years of experience.

I'm just saying. :wink:
 
Last edited:

gnemmas

New Member
Can you post a Picture of those truck door decal in question?

As we do one color simple design truck door sign for $160 (2 doors) installed, two colors (outline / shadow) for $260 (2 doors), airbrush effect $380 & up.

As you can see, for 3 doors, $450 could be a average price.

Things about signs are that, if you give a same job to 10 signmakers, I bet you gazillion dollars that no two will be alike. There will be 10 variations, thus 10 different prices.

When I started 25 years ago using cutting vinyl, Signmaker's Pricing Guide is my price. I am not lowballing the hand Oldpainter, I am just doing it faster and have a more business friendly setting and location.

That is why I am still in business and enjoy life.
 

Newsignguy

New Member
Gnemmas, actually one color, simple design by your rate would be 240 bucks...right on par with 3 other shops.

Joe, I have no problems with a guy charging his hourly rate doing whatever he is doing...I do the same with my other companies. The hourly rate is what it is.

If his rate is 100 dollars an hour, then he wanted to bill for 3? hours, plus material?...I gave him the design...he didn't have to do anything other than print it. 24"x24".

I went to the out of town shop at that time, and they cut and installed them while I waited...it was not even an hour.

This is only one example...I personally have several. I know others that have many as well, and now refuse to deal with him on pricing grounds.

I don't know anyone, in their right mind, that is going to pay double what every other person/shop is charging for virtually the exact same product.

Jhill- Really???

You guys seriously crack me up...Is it such a big deal that I want to fill a local market that isn't being taken care of by the local guy?? He is overcharging. You have NEVER seen a sign maker over charge because they can?? You have never seen customers that recognise it and shop elsewhere??

I want to learn to make signs, I am hoping this void in the market will allow me to do so. If you so choose to respond to my topics and/or posts, great! If not, so be it..that is a choice you are allowed to make.

I never set out to offend anyone, but it seems it was pretty easy. My apologies...this is obviously a sore spot for sign makers. Hopefully one day I will be offended too.
 

CentralSigns

New Member
I was trying to figure you out. Now I have, "Organic Disc Golf" big sign handpainted, not much to see. Is that you? Has to be ! I know who you speak of.
 

mikey-Oh

New Member
I have spent the last 6 months designing and hand painting signage for a disc golf course...very basic I will say..but enough to know what kind of time is involved in layout (especially for a newbie). It was also enough to know that I really appreciate good art, and quite miss the old days when I used to do a lot of painting.
in my book he may be okay.

I was trying to figure you out. Now I have, "Organic Disc Golf" big sign handpainted, not much to see. Is that you? Has to be ! I know who you speak of.

what's an organic disc?... seriously, balsa wood could be the final key to my 100+ drive
 

Newsignguy

New Member
I was trying to figure you out. Now I have, "Organic Disc Golf" big sign handpainted, not much to see. Is that you? Has to be ! I know who you speak of.


lmao...what is organic disc golf? *gone to google* Ok, no, that isn't me in the tree in what appears to be a large nest?? lol

The signs we (my gf and I) did for the course were all tee signs, information, etc..one large sign, very simple. Trace method..

I don't think the guy I am speaking of does anything out the Rockies way..but hey, I could be wrong.
 

iSign

New Member
If his rate is 100 dollars an hour, then he wanted to bill for 3? hours, plus material?...I gave him the design...he didn't have to do anything other than print it. 24"x24".

where does he get to recover some of that $30K he paid for the printer?
 
Top