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Onyx 18

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
...and I would like to better understand what you've said here.

Onyx ICC engine is sensitive to ink curves; how so exactly? What curve control are you using and what are the results?

You can control the curves inside onyx media manager in the calibration section. Ideal curves will change depending on inks and printer ect.

I'm basically forced to use Caldera, but I like the Onyx interface better.
I may have better luck building a good profile with the new version.

I have Thrive.
Gotcha.

I use to have problems building profiles in onyx too until i really started tweaking ink limits, curves ect.
 

ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
You can control the curves inside onyx media manager in the calibration section. Ideal curves will change depending on inks and printer ect.

As I suspected. The calibration section is not really part of the ICC engine as you've mentioned. Agree?

(When I first read your post I was wondering if the new version enabled ICC profile editing.)
 

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
As I suspected. The calibration section is not really part of the ICC engine as you've mentioned. Agree?

(When I first read your post I was wondering if the new version enabled ICC profile editing.)

Correct.
But when you create a media profile, Ink Restrictions - Calibration (linearisation) - Ink limits all contribute to the final ICC profile output.
You can modify the ICC profiles with onyx. Got to the modify and manage drop down in the "icc profile" section and press edit. You can change the black generation, gamut mapping ect. It does have some good functionality.

in x18, i believe there's more functions.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Correct.
But when you create a media profile, Ink Restrictions - Calibration (linearisation) - Ink limits all contribute to the final ICC profile output.
You can modify the ICC profiles with onyx. Got to the modify and manage drop down in the "icc profile" section and press edit. You can change the black generation, gamut mapping ect. It does have some good functionality.

in x18, i believe there's more functions.
Youve always seemed pretty knowledgable in ICC profiles. Did you learn from any resources, or just experimenting?

I've read most of the onyx ICC pages, but I didn't find much to do with curves / ink limiting besides the default stuff. I'd love.to learn to profile better, but I don't have much time during the work day to experiment... So most of my understanding comes from reading. Any websites / tutorials you know of that's helpful?
 

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
Youve always seemed pretty knowledgable in ICC profiles. Did you learn from any resources, or just experimenting?

I've read most of the onyx ICC pages, but I didn't find much to do with curves / ink limiting besides the default stuff. I'd love.to learn to profile better, but I don't have much time during the work day to experiment... So most of my understanding comes from reading. Any websites / tutorials you know of that's helpful?

A lot of it is experimenting and having the right tools for the job. Onyx has some useful info, but i wish they'd give more info about their software. They have a lot of tools but they're useless if people unsure how to use them.

Unfortunately i've been though websites and forums with not much luck. It's easy to find profiling about desktop printers but that's basically print a chart and read and it should be fine.
 

ikarasu

Active Member
Yup, thats the problem. Back when we first got our I1 I did a lot of reading. Most of our profiles are just print and scans... I made a profile that gets good neutral greys by adjusting the starting black. I think our profiles are "OK", but of course I'd like to get them perfect! Pretty much just the greys are out of whack, and some blues print more purplish. I think I'll look into it more when I get home.

The problem is mainly when I'm at work and have access to the printer, I'm too busy. When we first got the device I had plenty of time to profile and play around, I'm hoping for a break where I get a few days to just play with it and experiment!
 

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
Yup, thats the problem. Back when we first got our I1 I did a lot of reading. Most of our profiles are just print and scans... I made a profile that gets good neutral greys by adjusting the starting black. I think our profiles are "OK", but of course I'd like to get them perfect! Pretty much just the greys are out of whack, and some blues print more purplish. I think I'll look into it more when I get home.

The problem is mainly when I'm at work and have access to the printer, I'm too busy. When we first got the device I had plenty of time to profile and play around, I'm hoping for a break where I get a few days to just play with it and experiment!

Did you get the I1p publish package? if you did, try using their ICC engine. It's actually quite good and forgiving. You honestly dont need to go crazy on patches either. The IT8-7.4 chart is fine to use. or 944 patches in onyx. or you're wasting time if you dont have an automatic Spectro.

Greys blacks are always an issue, depending on materials. You can either go more GCR, start blacks earlier ect to get more black in the print to help but then you you may get more grainy black and white prints and not as dark blacks. And again, every printer and media is different so the same settings may not work on different media or printer.

1 Tip i will share is to take notes, write down what worked and what didn't work. going though notes will refresh you with ideas ect.
 

SignMeUpGraphics

Super Active Member
Pauly is right about i1Profiler. I've made ICCs with both Onyx and i1Profiler and the wider gamut always comes from the X-Rite package.
I only use Onyx to profile if we're doing something weird (like deleting the Orange and Red channels from our S80600 profile).
By no means are the Onyx results bad though. End results are near identical in the real world but the i1 software is definitely easier to drive.
 

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
Pauly is right about i1Profiler. I've made ICCs with both Onyx and i1Profiler and the wider gamut always comes from the X-Rite package.
I only use Onyx to profile if we're doing something weird (like deleting the Orange and Red channels from our S80600 profile).
By no means are the Onyx results bad though. End results are near identical in the real world but the i1 software is definitely easier to drive.

I notice onyx gets Reds wrong but it does tones nicely. Xrite does it all nice but i have found it can make dark colours murky. I know you can do a bit more with I1Profiler like optimisation, but i've never actually tired. I might give it a shot when i get some free time.
 

Andy_warp

New Member
A big part of profiling in my opinion is keeping your machines clean and serviced as well. Many will jump to the "I need to profile" when the issue is hardware.

I haven't tried the xrite profile generator, I was told it didn't play too well with Caldera.

I have to profile fabric, and most have grain. In Onyx I would rotate the swatches to get the best average from both directions. It was nice because the software had you scan the whole set once, and go back and do the verification (this is where I could change up fabric grain) Caldera has you do your verification scan right after.

I'd love a barberi but $8,000 is a tough sale when we have nice workable/neutral/consistent profiles in use.

I think the larger aperture would do wonders on the dimensional nature of the grain. I'd also like the transmissive option for backlit fabric.

Youve always seemed pretty knowledgable in ICC profiles. Did you learn from any resources, or just experimenting?

I've read most of the onyx ICC pages, but I didn't find much to do with curves / ink limiting besides the default stuff. I'd love.to learn to profile better, but I don't have much time during the work day to experiment... So most of my understanding comes from reading. Any websites / tutorials you know of that's helpful?

I too would like to get in to the curve tweaking a bit.
@Ikarusu

I learned a slew from this site about profiling, however I was already pretty proficient in ink limiting and standard density calibrations.
I agree with Pauly about just spending the time in testing. Since we all run different gear, software and ink there is never absolute instruction.

In all honesty I think the prepress workflow is every bit as important as icc profiling, or creating a print condition.
We get ghastly files that the best profile in the world couldn't solve.

What is tough for us about changing ANYTHING up is the nature of fabric and how long it lasts. We're constantly called on to "do what we did last time" or replace only one panel out of five.
This is why my blood boils when people think they can buy an i1 and boom, everything is resolved! We could never achieve those requests without strict process control either in prepress or equipment...all the way down to humidity and environment.

One of the scariest things I've had to do was a machine and rip transition during a production cycle! The grand format machines were too big to keep the old and new running!
Having good profiles was pretty key, even though I couldn't sew product from old to new. Having neutral grays makes you much more comfortable during something like this.

Nobody here had created a successful profile with our gear before I started working here. All density and eye. They told me .icc profiling couldn't be done! Right off the bat our color went from the likes of color newspaper ads to glossy magazine covers...it was that stark. Not to mention all of time we save now in spot color matching!
It almost broke my heart to unplug that gnarly old beast...I had named her Edna.

Our new machine and ink has a weaker color gamut, but the runability and consistency makes up for it in most cases.

I'll have to give the new onyx a demo...we can always roll back to caldera if an old job comes back to haunt us.

Thanks for the post Pauly!
 

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
A big part of profiling in my opinion is keeping your machines clean and serviced as well. Many will jump to the "I need to profile" when the issue is hardware.

I haven't tried the xrite profile generator, I was told it didn't play too well with Caldera.

I have to profile fabric, and most have grain. In Onyx I would rotate the swatches to get the best average from both directions. It was nice because the software had you scan the whole set once, and go back and do the verification (this is where I could change up fabric grain) Caldera has you do your verification scan right after.

I'd love a barberi but $8,000 is a tough sale when we have nice workable/neutral/consistent profiles in use.

I think the larger aperture would do wonders on the dimensional nature of the grain. I'd also like the transmissive option for backlit fabric.



I too would like to get in to the curve tweaking a bit.
@Ikarusu

I learned a slew from this site about profiling, however I was already pretty proficient in ink limiting and standard density calibrations.
I agree with Pauly about just spending the time in testing. Since we all run different gear, software and ink there is never absolute instruction.

In all honesty I think the prepress workflow is every bit as important as icc profiling, or creating a print condition.
We get ghastly files that the best profile in the world couldn't solve.

What is tough for us about changing ANYTHING up is the nature of fabric and how long it lasts. We're constantly called on to "do what we did last time" or replace only one panel out of five.
This is why my blood boils when people think they can buy an i1 and boom, everything is resolved! We could never achieve those requests without strict process control either in prepress or equipment...all the way down to humidity and environment.

One of the scariest things I've had to do was a machine and rip transition during a production cycle! The grand format machines were too big to keep the old and new running!
Having good profiles was pretty key, even though I couldn't sew product from old to new. Having neutral grays makes you much more comfortable during something like this.

Nobody here had created a successful profile with our gear before I started working here. All density and eye. They told me .icc profiling couldn't be done! Right off the bat our color went from the likes of color newspaper ads to glossy magazine covers...it was that stark. Not to mention all of time we save now in spot color matching!
It almost broke my heart to unplug that gnarly old beast...I had named her Edna.

Our new machine and ink has a weaker color gamut, but the runability and consistency makes up for it in most cases.

I'll have to give the new onyx a demo...we can always roll back to caldera if an old job comes back to haunt us.

Thanks for the post Pauly!

I didn't realise there was a reply!

I can see the difficulty with fabric.
What Spectro do you use? You at least need something with 6mm aperture for good measure with fabric.

You should be able to get I1 Profiler profiles to work in caldera. do everything in the RIP but when it comes to printing ICC profile chart, close and save it and print the i1P charts with the new media profile you've created and turn all icc profiles off. print read make then import them to your media profile.

IMO every print shop should have an i1p, that way they can calibrate their screens and see how good their colours really are. And you've also got a tool to make profiles if need be and spot measures. It really is a great all in 1 tool, even though i dont have one...

But it's all about trial and error. you can get taught new things, techniques ect but trial and error as you can see results change.

I have all Barbieri Equipment LFP RT s3 and a Sectropad They're awesome in my shop as i do flat bed printing and rigid. LFP mostly gets used for rigid media or transparent and the Spectropad will be used for what ever else i put on the machine like papers.
 

SignMeUpGraphics

Super Active Member
I'd be more excited if my rep ever called me back. Left phone and email messages... no reply for 3 weeks now.
Let us know what it's like. I'm going to get up them on Monday because this is beyond slack now.
 

SignMeUpGraphics

Super Active Member
We run two separate copies of Onyx (Thrive 10.2 for the Arizona and PosterShop 12.2 for the Epson).
12.2 is under maintenance so I'm pushing to get v18 before it runs out.
We'll probably renew anyway though, as next years maintenance on 12.2 will include the Arizona as a supported printer (12.2 is only PosterShop, not Thrive).
Haven't had any issues at all with JAWS, but will see what upgrade paths are available at renewal time.
 

Pauly

Printrade.com.au
We run two separate copies of Onyx (Thrive 10.2 for the Arizona and PosterShop 12.2 for the Epson).
12.2 is under maintenance so I'm pushing to get v18 before it runs out.
We'll probably renew anyway though, as next years maintenance on 12.2 will include the Arizona as a supported printer (12.2 is only PosterShop, not Thrive).
Haven't had any issues at all with JAWS, but will see what upgrade paths are available at renewal time.

Dude no why you doing that?? Upgrade Thrive to run both printers! Beats paying for 2 licences. And im pretty sure you can run thrive on multiple computers on the same network. (double check it though) and you also able to run Thrive remotely.

use this to check your licences
http://owa.onyxgfx.com/webkey/
 

Christian @ 2CT Media

Active Member
We run two separate copies of Onyx (Thrive 10.2 for the Arizona and PosterShop 12.2 for the Epson).
12.2 is under maintenance so I'm pushing to get v18 before it runs out.
We'll probably renew anyway though, as next years maintenance on 12.2 will include the Arizona as a supported printer (12.2 is only PosterShop, not Thrive).
Haven't had any issues at all with JAWS, but will see what upgrade paths are available at renewal time.
Jaws is gone in 18. Its all Adobe APPE now.
 

Bly

New Member
We run 4 printers from one copy of Thrive.
Not sure why you'd want to run two separate PCs running the same rip.
 

SignMeUpGraphics

Super Active Member
Dude no why you doing that?? Upgrade Thrive to run both printers! Beats paying for 2 licences. And im pretty sure you can run thrive on multiple computers on the same network. (double check it though) and you also able to run Thrive remotely.

use this to check your licences
http://owa.onyxgfx.com/webkey/

The cost to upgrade Thrive well exceeded the bundled copy of PosterShop included with the Epson because it was 2 versions "behind".
Doing it this way should lower our upgrade cost in August when maintenance on 12.2 expires and we need to renew.
I think I worked out that it was cheaper to use the bundled 12.2 PosterShop for a year, then upgrade to Thrive later than it was to upgrade from a legacy Onyx version to current in one hit.
 
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