Onyx 18

[SignMeUpGraphics]

We run 4 printers from one copy of Thrive.
Not sure why you'd want to run two separate PCs running the same rip.

We're happily running 10.2 and 12.2 on the same machine. No conflicts. That being said, this should be sorted in August as above.

 

[jasonx]

Hopefully they fixed the spot color replacement table for the Latex 3x000 series. Be nice if they responded to their customers instead of just the old line upgrade and see if it works.

 

[ikarasu]

Speaking of spot color replacement...

Where does onyx get its values for spot color replacement?

When printing 123C Yellow, with spot color replacement on no matter what profile, our Seiko thinks it's something ridiculously light like 0,7,27.

Where as if I have spot color replacement off, it's at 1,30,94.

Under Setup > Rip configuration > color matching table, printer specific mode I have nothing for 123C. It's under system defined colors, but nowhere to change it. I don't think it's a profiling issue, because if I scan 123C with the I1, it prints out perfectly. Getting annoying because I'd like to use spot color replacement, but for some jobs it just completely screws everything up. It'd be nice if it only changed spot colors to user defined colors.

Going to try onyx 18 out... Make a profile with it. I find everything is pretty accurate now, except the default spot color replacement table.

 

[Andy_warp]

I didn't realise there was a reply!

I can see the difficulty with fabric.
What Spectro do you use? You at least need something with 6mm aperture for good measure with fabric.

You should be able to get I1 Profiler profiles to work in caldera. do everything in the RIP but when it comes to printing ICC profile chart, close and save it and print the i1P charts with the new media profile you've created and turn all icc profiles off. print read make then import them to your media profile.

IMO every print shop should have an i1p, that way they can calibrate their screens and see how good their colours really are. And you've also got a tool to make profiles if need be and spot measures. It really is a great all in 1 tool, even though i dont have one...

But it's all about trial and error. you can get taught new things, techniques ect but trial and error as you can see results change.

I have all Barbieri Equipment LFP RT s3 and a Sectropad They're awesome in my shop as i do flat bed printing and rigid. LFP mostly gets used for rigid media or transparent and the Spectropad will be used for what ever else i put on the machine like papers.

We've got an i1...it makes decent profiles. I'll give the xrite software a go. Thanks!

 

[Pauly]

Seems like all the colour checker stuff required "advantage gold"? wow.
It's not something i had planned to use, but you'd think they'd have that all in the software since they're marketing it all.

Still waiting on my key so haven't been able to try it.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Bit sneaky, but yeah... it's documented here:
https://www.onyxgfx.com/support/onyx-advantage-2/

Shame, we throw thousands at Onyx and they still manage to make you pay more for add-ons.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Shame, we throw thousands at Onyx and they still manage to make you pay more for add-ons.

Not totally uncommon among other software packages as well.

From subscription to add-ons that'll do it. Brave new world, at least it better be.

 

[Pauly]

Bit sneaky, but yeah... it's documented here:
https://www.onyxgfx.com/support/onyx-advantage-2/

Shame, we throw thousands at Onyx and they still manage to make you pay more for add-ons.

Yeah that's how i found out. At the end of the day i wont need to use it. Already got 3rd party software that can check accuracy vs a reference set.

I downloaded the trial on my laptop (not my actual RIP pc) and put in all my profiles to have a look.
There's a few small changes here and there.
The RIP has a few changes, nothing dramatic. but you can see them.
patterns in job editor.

In media manager, There has been some changes in the icc build options. There's a added "saturation factor" which gives more saturation to calculated icc values.
And there's "ONYX AccuBoost" which is a iteration of the icc profile. Can't see the options in the settings as i need to print and read. But theres new patch sizes. So hopefully this works? I'll defiantly be trying this tomorrow as long as i can build the profile.
Last time i had an onyx trial (x12) it wouldn't let me build profiles in the trial. Seems as i can now.

I haven't looked at what else is new but im sure theres others.

 

[Bly]

But the ad said it was gonna be a game changer lol

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Iterations are nice, but i1 has done that since forever anyway.
To be honest our gamuts are about 1-2% larger using i1 vs. Onyx when creating a profile so it's still not a game changer here

 

[Pauly]

But the ad said it was gonna be a game changer lol

HA!

Iterations are nice, but i1 has done that since forever anyway.
To be honest our gamuts are about 1-2% larger using i1 vs. Onyx when creating a profile so it's still not a game changer here

I had some toying around.

The icc engine seems to have the same issues. dark rich reds go brown. The new saturation setting lightens everything. so those browns go light brown.

The colour checker, it works but delusional IMO. My onyx profile passed, but the i1p failed, has a larger DeltaE (less accurate). It passes on all the tests except faild "max dE on all patches" I1p has richer colours so that's why it would have failed. The patches doesn't go near the colours it's missing for me.

The "accucolour" is not an iteration but sort of. It helps to get more accuracy inside the gamut range.

Onyx is upping it's game but with some nice icc settings but it doesn't work the way i'd like it to.

If i can recall, there's an onyx colour expert in the Oce office. I may reach out to him and have a chat.

 

[Pauly]

I did the new "accuboost" thing. 2890 swatches later (3 options 2890 / 3970 / 5292) and it still doesn't know what to do with the reds. profile looks no different really.
I swear either im doing something wrong somewhere or it cannot understand the red patches well.

 

[ColorCrest]

I had some toying around.

Using your best glossy photo grade paper and highest quality print mode with a mechanically sound and calibrated (neutral grays) machine, correct? Are you setting your spectro correctly in the case of any OBAs? Personally, I would evaluate new software using my best possible setup first, then my typical production setups.

The icc engine seems to have the same issues. dark rich reds go brown.

A red color ramp should simply start at white and graduate from pinks trough clean red tones ending in black at the end. It might help to better describe your color issues using known colors such as Pantone IDs. Notice, if referring to red Pantone colors, it is normal for many dark reds to print brown. Also, using LAB, RGB, and CMYK values, you should be able to learn what’s happening in the RIP translation of color from input to output to see if your expectations are reasonable.

So, does a simple red color ramp appear correct to you?

 

[ColorCrest]

2890 swatches later (3 options 2890 / 3970 / 5292)

Personally, I would only use these swatch counts if I knew for a fact their advantage is they contain more neutral and near-neutral swatches. That fact should help in gray balance for B&W photos. Otherwise, gray balance should already be fine.

High swatch counts might help in cases where one is measuring rough media because more samples are being taken to average.

High swatch counts might enable better layout on particular sheet sizes which can save media and time.

High swatch counts might help better tune color from misbehaving nozzles.

 

[Pauly]

Personally, I would only use these swatch counts if I knew for a fact their advantage is they contain more neutral and near-neutral swatches. That fact should help in gray balance for B&W photos. Otherwise, gray balance should already be fine.

High swatch counts might help in cases where one is measuring rough media because more samples are being taken to average.

High swatch counts might enable better layout on particular sheet sizes which can save media and time.

High swatch counts might help better tune color from misbehaving nozzles.

Those swatch counts are only for the "accuboost" option after creating the icc profile. basically an iteration. Onyx says it helps achieving better pantone colour matches so im assuming it may make changes with the pantone cmyk values. i haven't had much time seeing what everything does.
In onyx i just use 944 patches.

But according to their colour checker, my profiles are good. according to my monitor, their dull and reds are way off. (every monitor i have is calibrated)
So i had tried the accuboost to see if it will notice the off colours and adjust them, which it didn't.

 

[Pauly]

Using your best glossy photo grade paper and highest quality print mode with a mechanically sound and calibrated (neutral grays) machine, correct? Are you setting your spectro correctly in the case of any OBAs? Personally, I would evaluate new software using my best possible setup first, then my typical production setups.


A red color ramp should simply start at white and graduate from pinks trough clean red tones ending in black at the end. It might help to better describe your color issues using known colors such as Pantone IDs. Notice, if referring to red Pantone colors, it is normal for many dark reds to print brown. Also, using LAB, RGB, and CMYK values, you should be able to learn what’s happening in the RIP translation of color from input to output to see if your expectations are reasonable.

So, does a simple red color ramp appear correct to you?

I'll get back to this on monday.

 

[Pauly]

Using your best glossy photo grade paper and highest quality print mode with a mechanically sound and calibrated (neutral grays) machine, correct? Are you setting your spectro correctly in the case of any OBAs? Personally, I would evaluate new software using my best possible setup first, then my typical production setups.


A red color ramp should simply start at white and graduate from pinks trough clean red tones ending in black at the end. It might help to better describe your color issues using known colors such as Pantone IDs. Notice, if referring to red Pantone colors, it is normal for many dark reds to print brown. Also, using LAB, RGB, and CMYK values, you should be able to learn what’s happening in the RIP translation of color from input to output to see if your expectations are reasonable.

So, does a simple red color ramp appear correct to you?

I did some more tests and evaluations today.
Paper has no OBAs
I use a standard paper with a satin finish as im printing on a Oce Arizona UV.
So roughly 15/95/95/15 was going to 20/80/80/20 (rounded numbers) I checked the red ramp and it was clear, It was all good until that area it would go brown. Rest of the colours where good. It's a strange thing when you see it.

Turns out it was an ink limits issue. almost impossible to determine where to limit inks on UV printers as ink stacks and doesn't create artifacts.

 

[ikarasu]

I did some more tests and evaluations today.
Paper has no OBAs
I use a standard paper with a satin finish as im printing on a Oce Arizona UV.
So roughly 15/95/95/15 was going to 20/80/80/20 (rounded numbers) I checked the red ramp and it was clear, It was all good until that area it would go brown. Rest of the colours where good. It's a strange thing when you see it.

Turns out it was an ink limits issue. almost impossible to determine where to limit inks on UV printers as ink stacks and doesn't create artifacts.

Does ink limits actually.change the profiling color wise? I was under the impression all it did was save you ink usage / prevent artifacting. Our reds are a bit brownish on the dark end too, maybe I'll try limiting the ink a bit more. I'm usually pretty generous with the limiting because ink cost doesn't worry me much, so I usually go 1-2 steps above where it becomes black in the inkimiting step.

 

[Pauly]

Does ink limits actually.change the profiling color wise? I was under the impression all it did was save you ink usage / prevent artifacting. Our reds are a bit brownish on the dark end too, maybe I'll try limiting the ink a bit more. I'm usually pretty generous with the limiting because ink cost doesn't worry me much, so I usually go 1-2 steps above where it becomes black in the inkimiting step.

Well, when i was first learning to do profiles years ago, Oce had a bulletin showing how to do it and it said to skip the ink limiting part in onyx so i always have.
That was the issue all a long. I decided to look how Oce made profiles and in fact they used ink limiting. So i tried it and has changed how onyx makes the profile so yes i believe its necessary for onyx to understand colour better. i also made a profile with my other software with the same settings and turned out the same as usual.
The odd thing is that ink limiting doesn't show any artifacts as it's a UV printer. so determining where to limit is hard.

 

[ikarasu]

Yeah, I was always told the ink limiting only saves you ink - Theres no point in using 100/100/100/100 (400% ink) when onyx can limit it to say 25/25/25/25 and only use 100% ink (Fake numbers to easily get the point across). I was told onyx will still know how to get the colors it needs to, whether your ink is limited or not. Maybe I'll try making a new profile and playing with the ink limit. I always went above, instead of below in fear I'd lose out on some gamut. Most our colors are pretty accurate though, Some blues are a bit purplish, greys a bit brownish, etc... Nothing perfect, but it's still pretty accurate.