output color wrong

[Johnny Best]

"Children of the Corn" sounds like the way bob describes it.
I want to know how the guy who worked for ams drew a circle.
Remember years ago I used Illustrator with a Mac and all the sign guys used DOS software with green screens.
Now its the standard? And "Product photographers will use Hasselblad" where have you been, they got standard with moon pics 50 years ago.

 

[bob]

Bob, that is a false equivalency... or is it a faulty comparison? I can't remember. Either way, whether or not Adobe products are better or not has no bearing on their standing as the "industry standard". For example, Americans still use the archaic imperial system. That unit of measurement is the industry standard in many (most) areas of manufacturing in the US, however, experts agree that the metric system is a superior unit of measurement...

In actual use the English or Imperial system is harder to learn but far more versatile as well as being better scaled to human beings.

...You can say that you prefer one over the other, and as I said, more power to you. But that doesn't change the fact that Illustrator, InDesign and Photoshop are the industry standard for design..

You just keep telling yourself that sport.

 

[shoresigns]

I've had 3 employees use illustrator, two of which had college graphic design degrees. Every job they did was screwed up. To make a square, instead of using the box tool, they drew 4 separate lines and connected them Which they never merged nodes and were broken apart. With the layers, everything was locked and outputted wrong. Plus every file that was to size was like 1 GB big and versaworks refused to load it.

And you blame that on the software tools? Are you kidding?

Illustrator and Photoshop are not the easiest things to learn, but it sounds like your local college is graduating incompetent design students. Sadly, this isn't an uncommon problem. No graphic design student should be able to graduate even a 1-year program before they're reasonably competent in Illustrator, Photoshop and InDesign.

 

[papabud]

i agree its more to do with your designers than the software. we brought in a recent grad. they had a crash course in real world application. they was over whelmed at first trying to learn how things are supposed to work.
what a grad learns is solely based on whats in a text book and their instructors ability. then once out they have to start all over again learning pretty much everything.

 

[peavey123]

I only use adobe products. I supply files to companies all over Canada that are print ready. This is for all types of machines and printing processes and I don't have any issues. I have confidence with tools like illustrator. Every shop I've worked at has had corel and let me tell you I wouldn't have the confidence I have with adobe products. I know straight-up corel has issues. So what else is there bob? I'm curious because I should be playing with these new industry standards that I haven't heard of...

 

[Gino]

A craftsman does not give undue reverence to his tools. Rather he uses whatever is at hand to do his work.

Yeah, just today, I was up putting some signs on a wall and an old screw was protruding out. The slot was totally stripped, so that wouldn't work and it was too small to get behind it to pry it out, so I used the level and hammered it right off the wall. Now, its totally flat again...... and I didn't hafta boom back down for a hammer or grinder. Made do with a little yankee ingenuity.

 

[Andy_warp]

Aren't these anti Adobe ranters the same that say profiles are a sham?!
Or that color management is for "coloristas"...like we are some kind of prima donnas or something.

Corel draw?! Gag! (...I can't figure out how to work at scale.....)
Do people think blueprints are size for size? It's ludicrous.
How would anything get built?

If it works for you, cool. As a service bureau we HAVE to be versed in what 99% of the designers use. (yep...Adobe)

Problem is fully on designers, however there really isn't much resource in school for preparation of efficient, working mechanical files for print production.
Adobe just keeps adding tools that don't work in every application, but don't explain the pitfalls of said tools.

The tools change faster than the syllabus. Client art we see is awful...but not because of the software.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Geez, opened a can of worms with that question... it does sound like bad employees rather than bad software though.
I'm not going to get into an argument on industry standards, but I think we've gone a little off topic now...

 

[SightLine]

Or the same ones that insist on still designing everything in CMYK. Can I have eleventeen different blacks that for some reason all print a dull ugly dark shade of grey please? Larger files with a smaller gamut - perfect! That being said I still get files from some of the largest most prestigious agencies that are CMYK, everything is way way larger than the art with 19,000 clipping masks, useless points (a circle needs 4 points people), every shadow is a clipping masked gigantic nightmare that is grouped into 36 other groups and then compounded in with 16 other things. On color, A agree with Andy..... yall' go right on ahead and keep using canned profiles and CMYK for everything. We will keep on producing things that are stunningly vivid and pop off the page with rich crazy colors that our CMYK inks are simply not capable of.... or are they? Many fail to realize that CMYK in your design software has zero correlation to the CMYK inks ink your printer. The only time we dumb things down to CMYK is for something we are sending out to a traditional printer that requires it.

Is there a market for Corel? Absolutely. Is Corel very capable and excellent design software. Its what your learned on and nothing is wrong with that. As mentioned by others multiple times, if you are dealing with any large corporation, large government entity, major design firm, ad agency, etc, etc.... 99.96% of the time they are using Adobe and are going to send you an Adobe file. Plain and simple fact Jack. It is what it is. Is Adobe the absolute best design software there is? I have no idea. Its what I learned to use and is what nearly every single commercial client we deal with uses.

Fresh out of school - have a couple of them here. They teach them how to use certain aspects of the software but not what good design is and nothing even close to what I would consider a nice clean artwork file.

 

[shoresigns]

Or the same ones that insist on still designing everything in CMYK. Larger files with a smaller gamut - perfect!

The reason designers are always advised to use CMYK is because most print shops and sign shops do not have a colour management system, and CMYK therefore is a bit more predictable than RGB. A worthy tradeoff for a smaller gamut if you aren't contracting the job to a high-end commercial printer.

That being said I still get files from some of the largest most prestigious agencies that are CMYK, everything is way way larger than the art with 19,000 clipping masks, useless points (a circle needs 4 points people), every shadow is a clipping masked gigantic nightmare that is grouped into 36 other groups and then compounded in with 16 other things.

Generally when you get a bazillion clipping masks it's just a side effect of converting between different vector formats. It's not something the designer intentionally put into the file.

Many fail to realize that CMYK in your design software has zero correlation to the CMYK inks in your printer.

Um, isn't that the whole point of ICC profiles? If your monitor is properly calibrated and you're sending a CMYK file to two different colour-managed printers, you should be able to expect predictable and similar results.

 

[ams]

Versaworks won't even load an AI file and illustrator isn't very compatible with most softwares. You have to flatten the artwork and do a number of other things or it comes in all corrupt. It also takes a lot longer to do simple things in it than with other software. But anyways I will stick with my choice of programs.

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

illustrator isn't very compatible with most softwares

Sounds like someone who doesn't use/like Illustrator to be honest.
We've used it for near on 10 years and can't remember any software not being able to open one of our files.
Stick to the standards (PDF & EPS) and everything should be able to read them.

 

[Andy_warp]

All of the nested clipping masks are a DIRECT result of Indesign to Illustrator. We don't accept ANY file format created by indesign...only the native design with assets.

Pdf from indesign? ...not unless it is a solid color of vector art with zero effects or transparency.

It screws up all transparency...it screws up images...
I guess that is fine if you are a "rasterize it and print it" guy

The reason designers are always advised to use CMYK is because most print shops and sign shops do not have a colour management system, and CMYK therefore is a bit more predictable than RGB. A worthy tradeoff for a smaller gamut if you aren't contracting the job to a high-end commercial printer.


Generally when you get a bazillion clipping masks it's just a side effect of converting between different vector formats. It's not something the designer intentionally put into the file.


Um, isn't that the whole point of ICC profiles? If your monitor is properly calibrated and you're sending a CMYK file to two different colour-managed printers, you should be able to expect predictable and similar results.

Ummm no, that isn't the whole point of profiles.

The point of (device) profiles is to harness as much gamut out of your ink that you can.
And monitors have zero to do with a color managed workflow.

 

[Andy_warp]

On the Adobe bashing front...I absolutely HATE how bloated the new software is...

All of this Adobe Stock stuff should have a switch you can turn off.
I can honestly say I will NEVER use this function.
Photoshop takes FOREVER to load now...it's all a big pig.

That all said, we have enormous success with Illustrator working with our color managed rip (caldera) and workflow.
Spot color swaps on the fly...predictable, repeatable color.
How any printer can trash talk Illustrator, or elude to it not being the industry standard is beyond me.

...and .eps files?! No!!!!!!!
There is no point to them anymore. They're enormous, they handle color management poorly.

Our end result of prepress is always a pdf...we just don't accept pdf for production art.

There are too many factors with pdfs as far as their flavor. (is it raster...is it vector...does it have non native gradients (thanks Corel!)...has it been resampled...)

Blindly accepting pdfs is like a mechanic saying he will tune up any car for the same price and promise the same performance for everything.

 

[Corwin Steeves]

On the Adobe bashing front...I absolutely HATE how bloated the new software is...

All of this Adobe Stock stuff should have a switch you can turn off.
I can honestly say I will NEVER use this function.
Photoshop takes FOREVER to load now...it's all a big pig.

That all said, we have enormous success with Illustrator working with our color managed rip (caldera) and workflow.
Spot color swaps on the fly...predictable, repeatable color.
How any printer can trash talk Illustrator, or elude to it not being the industry standard is beyond me.

...and .eps files?! No!!!!!!!
There is no point to them anymore. They're enormous, they handle color management poorly.

Our end result of prepress is always a pdf...we just don't accept pdf for production art.

There are too many factors with pdfs as far as their flavor. (is it raster...is it vector...does it have non native gradients (thanks Corel!)...has it been resampled...)

Blindly accepting pdfs is like a mechanic saying he will tune up any car for the same price and promise the same performance for everything.

Our shop is still clinging the EPS file. I have tried to get them to consider PDF's more often, but because of problems that our RIP software (ONYX) had with PDF's years ago, they've remained suspecious. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, especially if they've been burned. They also are clinging to the notion that CMYK is the best way to design something. Sigh. Luckily, most of our files come from agencies and we just need to create print ready files from an InDesign file, with all of the assets and fonts included... most of the time....

 

[Corwin Steeves]

Versaworks won't even load an AI file and illustrator isn't very compatible with most softwares. You have to flatten the artwork and do a number of other things or it comes in all corrupt. It also takes a lot longer to do simple things in it than with other software. But anyways I will stick with my choice of programs.

ONYX doesn't RIP .ai files either, it's not a file format for print output. AI files should always be saved as EPS or PDF files.

 

[Johnny Best]

I do work for ads for national mags and this is the way they usually want art files:
Images must be high resolution (300dpi), Color space must be CMYK or Grayscale. No spot colors, RGB, LAB color or embedded color profiles., All transparencies must be flattened., Publisher requires that ad materials be supplied in PDF x1-a (2001) format. (This format output in InDesign will embed fonts and flatten transparencies automatically.)
I use Photoshop and Illustrator and InDesign to do these projects because those three seem to fit what I need. It's my "standard" for doing things.

 

[Andy_warp]

I do work for ads for national mags and this is the way they usually want art files:
Images must be high resolution (300dpi), Color space must be CMYK or Grayscale. No spot colors, RGB, LAB color or embedded color profiles., All transparencies must be flattened., Publisher requires that ad materials be supplied in PDF x1-a (2001) format. (This format output in InDesign will embed fonts and flatten transparencies automatically.)
I use Photoshop and Illustrator and InDesign to do these projects because those three seem to fit what I need. It's my "standard" for doing things.

Those parameters are all fine and good for magazine art.
10 foot wide inkjets are a different beast. We have to KNOW we can get good results with minimal press checks.
A lot of this dumbing down of graphic requirements is due to the fact that many prepress techs don't even know what to do with good files.
It's a fail in this industry, and it was brought about with the last recession when all of the receptionists and grunts turned into graphic professionals.

 

[Andy_warp]

Our shop is still clinging the EPS file. I have tried to get them to consider PDF's more often, but because of problems that our RIP software (ONYX) had with PDF's years ago, they've remained suspecious. It's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, especially if they've been burned. They also are clinging to the notion that CMYK is the best way to design something. Sigh. Luckily, most of our files come from agencies and we just need to create print ready files from an InDesign file, with all of the assets and fonts included... most of the time....

Remaining suspicious is understandable! My lead prepress tech is the same. We use pdf's...BUT we know exactly what works and what doesn't on the prepress end. We meticulously comb through art omitting any extraneous bs...like empy clipping masks...vector data off the artboard...
If you're running a good profile, the cmyk/rgb images should be nearly identical. RGB just saves space. I'm an imaging nerd, so I subscribe to the fact, like you, that the largest colorspace should be used right down to the file rip stage. If you have solid prepress standards and leave your rip alone as far as settings it works great.
CMYK should be used if you are working in Illustrator, however I prefer a spot color workflow when at all possible.
The problem with RGB in Illustrator is your grays...they go to arbitrary values dependent on your working space, which is bad.
I like Illustrator cmyk with RGB images placed. You get the best of both worlds.

The only real issue I've had with ONYX is certain blending modes not rendering. Same with Caldera. (we only really trust multiply)

We run Caldera...although I've always kind of preferred ONYX. The reality is, they are both VERY capable packages now, and make profiling super easy.
They can handle damn near anything you throw at them. I did a test the other day and sent a pdf test file with live stroke width effects active, and arrowheads with dashed lines applied. I just wanted to see what would happen, and it all rendered fine. I was blown away!

 

[Pauly]

ONYX doesn't RIP .ai files either, it's not a file format for print output. AI files should always be saved as EPS or PDF files.

My onyx RIPS .ai files.