Corwin Steeves
Large format printer to the stars
Are you sure about that? 
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output color wrong
- Thread starter Michelle
- Start date
Johnny Best
Active Member
The reason why that was written by me was to show about standards of other industries to get the output they need. People were saying Illustrator .ai, .pdf, .esp files or whatever are no good with their RIP and printer. I use .pdf files and work in RGB with Photoshop and Illustrator and my RIP is Shiraz.
If someone does get files from other sources I would think they would have a readout for the "graphic professionals" to go by so they would not have so many complaints about it. But like you said a lot of receptionists and grunts have also bought printers and software and now think they know all the answers.
The issue I have, is that I cannot make up for inexperienced designers with a "catchall" set of rules and numbers.
For instance: I ask for 75ppi at full scale. Say a customer opens their 14ppi image and upsrez to 75ppi.
Now, technically their file is 75ppi, but most of us in print production know...that doesn't work.
Another example: we ask that for critical colors, the Pantone Solid Coated set is used. So my customer does a PMS 286C to PMS 485C gradient.
We also know that doesn't work (without neutralizing to all hell in the middle)
There are just so many nuances on how to do this stuff correctly, but so few designers willing to take the time to produce something other than sloppy drivel.
Many I speak to don't even know why outline mode is important in Illustrator...they just see pretty pictures in overprint preview.
Johnny Best
Active Member
I rarely use anyone's artwork to output, so I do not have issues that you are describing. But, when I send files out to be reproduced I like to know what they need because I picture a robot with no mind of it's own, hooked to a printer producing it for me, so I follow the instructions to the T so as not to mess up the robot's functions it has to do to achieve the output.
So now that robot has a name, Andy_warp.
So now that robot has a name, Andy_warp.
Yes! we all have that special easy button built in! LMAO!
SignMeUpGraphics
Super Active Member
Are you sure about that?
Onyx 12.2 appears to open .AI files on our workstation, so yes.
I know Pauly is on 12.2 also.
Bigdawg
Just Me
RGB, CMYK, .ai, pdf, eps, Illustrator, Corel, blah blah
They all have their place, but I agree with bob.. it's not the tool as much as the skill.
I used to run a service bureau and worked with all of them. I started in Illustrator 88 and photoshop 2.0. Can't remember what version of Corel I started with - whatever was out when Illy 88 was out. There was no InDesign back then - you used Pagemaker or Quark. Next we'll be arguing mac vs pc.
I used to work in a very high-end printing environment. I studied color under Richard Habera who was one of the early pioneers of scanning and digital photo correction. That man could look at a picture and tell you exactly how to get the colors that were supposed to be there. CMYK is what you need to use for jobs going on a printing press or copier. That would be industry standard for the print industry. And I would agree that the Illy/Photoshop/InDesign is pretty standard for that bunch. But we work with different RIPs, different processes. Definitely RGB for sign work IMHO - although the trade-off for good blacks is crappy yellows. It seems to me a lot of sign people use Corel - I don't personally because I know Illustrator like the back of my hand - but ask Joe Diaz about Corel... I would argue that Corel is probably more industry standard for sign shops than Illustrator. InDesign has no place in signage. Period. It is a page layout program, not a design program no matter what Adobe would like to think.
But back to the original question. Profiling is probably a big part of the problem, but Rolands are notorious for the red tint in the neutral colors. Monitor calibration, color space and format may be part of your issues too. You may want to consider getting a pro in to do profiles if you aren't able to do yourself. Good luck!
They all have their place, but I agree with bob.. it's not the tool as much as the skill.
I used to run a service bureau and worked with all of them. I started in Illustrator 88 and photoshop 2.0. Can't remember what version of Corel I started with - whatever was out when Illy 88 was out. There was no InDesign back then - you used Pagemaker or Quark. Next we'll be arguing mac vs pc.
I used to work in a very high-end printing environment. I studied color under Richard Habera who was one of the early pioneers of scanning and digital photo correction. That man could look at a picture and tell you exactly how to get the colors that were supposed to be there. CMYK is what you need to use for jobs going on a printing press or copier. That would be industry standard for the print industry. And I would agree that the Illy/Photoshop/InDesign is pretty standard for that bunch. But we work with different RIPs, different processes. Definitely RGB for sign work IMHO - although the trade-off for good blacks is crappy yellows. It seems to me a lot of sign people use Corel - I don't personally because I know Illustrator like the back of my hand - but ask Joe Diaz about Corel... I would argue that Corel is probably more industry standard for sign shops than Illustrator. InDesign has no place in signage. Period. It is a page layout program, not a design program no matter what Adobe would like to think.
But back to the original question. Profiling is probably a big part of the problem, but Rolands are notorious for the red tint in the neutral colors. Monitor calibration, color space and format may be part of your issues too. You may want to consider getting a pro in to do profiles if you aren't able to do yourself. Good luck!
SightLine
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Another I'd say on some RIP's that will seemingly work with PDF files but not ai files..... It "should" work with an ai file if it can work with a pdf. You can always just rename a .ai file to .pdf though. Internally the files are structurally built the same way since like CS2. A lot of the RIP's (they may or may not advertise it) also behind the scenes have licensed and are using APPE as the actual RIP. That would be Adobe PDF Print Engine.
Photoshop 4 was when I got in. Running quark on a power pc Mac OS8.6. I've been a technician on inkjets and large format scanners. The tools that are out now are quite a bit better in my opinion. Really the first go to as a culprit for problems is your process. My print environment is in a dusty shop...so if I'm not cleaning constantly, none of it matters.
Indesign is awful, honestly I'd take ragemaker over it. I remember loading 15 floppies worth of links back in the day. Saw a JAZ drive cook!
We had a CRUSE camera that would make 96x48 color photos from a 10x8 in one step.
We even had a full photo department, I miss the light trap door and spotting negs!
I am unfamiliar with Versaworks. Does it have any type of media creation to do standard channel calibrations/ and or set ink limits?
It could even be the printhead(s) I have to service and replace mine as needed for our 3.2 meter machine.
I'd be sure your getting good jet tests, and if there is an option to calibrate.
A full profiling session is ideal, but there are other things that can be done in the interim. For me, it's all about process control. If you control the environment/substrate/graphic process it can make troubleshooting much easier. It took me 15 to 20 years to attain all of these skills, many times learning the hard way.
SignMeUpGraphics
Super Active Member
Versaworks has basic media creation facilities, and can do channel limits/linearization and import ICCs (no internal ICC generation functionality).
That's where I would start Michele. Don't kill your media you are currently using, but try creating a new one and linearizing. You do need a densitometer or spectrophotometer to take readings. If you get good density ramps into the media profile it may balance things out. After that do some testing with grayscale photos and RGB photos that are desaturated (B & W, but in the rgb colorspace)
It will give you an idea of color shift.
Johnny Best
Active Member
Aldus Pagemaker, those were the days.
Corwin Steeves
Large format printer to the stars
Our ONYX (Thrive 12.2) doesn't show .ai files. I suppose you could change the extention and "trick" the RIP into opening it, but according to ONYX it's not a supported file type.
"While Adobe Illustrator (.ai) files will usually render correctly, they are not a supported file type. The .ai file type is a proprietary format owned by Adobe. If there are rendering problems, troubleshooting the issue is limited to RIP changes such as the Configure RIP Postscript options (Setup, Postscript, Configure RIP), and enabling or disabling CCADL and OVERPRINT. If an .ai file is not rendering correctly, the best option is to export the image as a PDF file ver 1.6 or later from Adobe Illustrator."
Pauly
Printrade.com.au
When opening a file into onyx. press open, when you get the open box, at the bottom is the text box with the file name and "type of file" change that to view all. click the ai file and it should open. this has worked on x10 also.
Pauly
Printrade.com.au
(*.*) is "all files" and yes, that's what it does. Shows "all files" including un supported ones. click the .ai file and it'll open