Ok, I hope this is not controversial. BUT, to get a surface ready for vinyl install that is highly oxidised and Old, maybe you can try FULL strength Thinners with a scourer, Scrub on, wash off with straight water, let dry and it STICKS. The client has the choice to repaint or cut the surface, or save thousands and let you do this, their choice.
-
I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
Oxidised surfaces
- Thread starter Stuckup
- Start date
Think Outside the square, if the job is too hard, change the process, its taking too long, change. On new trucks, here they seem to use Silicone to install the rubbers, I use Thinners to get it off. Sometimes use windex, or sugar soap. I will try drain opener on the crap surfaces, thanks for the heads up.
artbot
New Member
some added instructions and warnings:
be cautious. when i need to get corrosion off of some metal or oxidization off of some substrate, i get a big bucket of water, then mix about a 1/4 cup of crystal drain opener. they don't dissolve right away. when you have the mixture just right, the water will become very slightly warm. this is the mixture exo-therming. wind direction can also be an issue. i do a lot of deep etching of aluminum. i've have purchased a shop fan that is mounted on a five foot stand so that i can get a strong breeze of fresh at the back of my head. of course that is acid, but sodium hydroxide can also be a bit nasty if you get a good whiff.
you might also used the liquid gel version/toilet clog stuff. it is much milder and will sit on the substrate while you get away. perhaps that would be a better system for a veritcal surface? it's not nearly as potent as the crystals.
there could be some drawback for certain applications. crystal drain opener is a mordant. therefore it also can attack aluminum. so say, it you are cleaning the side of a truck that is covered in moss/mold/oxidization... if there is an aluminum extrusion at the bottom of the van, you would want to keep an eye on this stuff. for one, it will "clean" that metal. as in, if it starts to kick over at some point of a metal part, it will bleach that area from gray aluminum to bright white aluminum. which would be very attractive if it were consistent. this won't happen unless you see the material kicking over as in steaming and bubbling. otherwise it will just remove the oxide off the metal. but it can bleach it. if this reaction does occur, just spray it lightly with a water hose to knock the temperature down.
be cautious. when i need to get corrosion off of some metal or oxidization off of some substrate, i get a big bucket of water, then mix about a 1/4 cup of crystal drain opener. they don't dissolve right away. when you have the mixture just right, the water will become very slightly warm. this is the mixture exo-therming. wind direction can also be an issue. i do a lot of deep etching of aluminum. i've have purchased a shop fan that is mounted on a five foot stand so that i can get a strong breeze of fresh at the back of my head. of course that is acid, but sodium hydroxide can also be a bit nasty if you get a good whiff.
you might also used the liquid gel version/toilet clog stuff. it is much milder and will sit on the substrate while you get away. perhaps that would be a better system for a veritcal surface? it's not nearly as potent as the crystals.
there could be some drawback for certain applications. crystal drain opener is a mordant. therefore it also can attack aluminum. so say, it you are cleaning the side of a truck that is covered in moss/mold/oxidization... if there is an aluminum extrusion at the bottom of the van, you would want to keep an eye on this stuff. for one, it will "clean" that metal. as in, if it starts to kick over at some point of a metal part, it will bleach that area from gray aluminum to bright white aluminum. which would be very attractive if it were consistent. this won't happen unless you see the material kicking over as in steaming and bubbling. otherwise it will just remove the oxide off the metal. but it can bleach it. if this reaction does occur, just spray it lightly with a water hose to knock the temperature down.
Scott Reynolds
New Member
I have massive respect for Artbot, but because of this situation with very strong chemicals that can cause injury, I'm going to have to slightly disagree with the fan blowing air on the back of the head comment.
Working with extremely strong chemicals is something I have many years of daily experience with, and having a fan blowing air directly on the back of your head is not a good idea. A fan behind you at a 45 degree angle or more works great. When a fan is blowing air directly on the back of your head, it creates low-pressure on your chest and face. It will actually draw any fumes up the front of your chest and to your face. Trying keep the fan blowing either from the side or just over one of your shoulders, but not directly on the back of your head and back.
For years I've used fans to keep toxic and hazardous chemicals and airborne pollutants away from my face. Hundreds of times I have been working and realized that I suddenly started to inhaled something that I shouldn't have, and every time, I noticed that I moved my body position while working causing me to stand with my back directly to a fan. I'll either move back to where the fan is not directly on my back, or I would have to move a fan so it was no longer blowing air directly on the back of my head.
Obviously there are many factors at work here. The fans that I use push a very high CFM in a very focused direction. Because the fans I use move so much air, the vacuum and turbulence effect in front of my face could be more exaggerated than somebody using a lower CFM fan at a greater distance.
Either way I just wouldn't recommend a fan blowing air on your back or at the back of your head.
Scott
Working with extremely strong chemicals is something I have many years of daily experience with, and having a fan blowing air directly on the back of your head is not a good idea. A fan behind you at a 45 degree angle or more works great. When a fan is blowing air directly on the back of your head, it creates low-pressure on your chest and face. It will actually draw any fumes up the front of your chest and to your face. Trying keep the fan blowing either from the side or just over one of your shoulders, but not directly on the back of your head and back.
For years I've used fans to keep toxic and hazardous chemicals and airborne pollutants away from my face. Hundreds of times I have been working and realized that I suddenly started to inhaled something that I shouldn't have, and every time, I noticed that I moved my body position while working causing me to stand with my back directly to a fan. I'll either move back to where the fan is not directly on my back, or I would have to move a fan so it was no longer blowing air directly on the back of my head.
Obviously there are many factors at work here. The fans that I use push a very high CFM in a very focused direction. Because the fans I use move so much air, the vacuum and turbulence effect in front of my face could be more exaggerated than somebody using a lower CFM fan at a greater distance.
Either way I just wouldn't recommend a fan blowing air on your back or at the back of your head.
Scott
artbot
New Member
very true. i was being very general in my description. when etching aluminum. i test the wind direction and very carefully place the fan as to push the fumes away from the substrate. many times, i am off to the side of the fan. one odd thing i've noticed. this doesn't work in a "0" wind environment very well. i believe that the acid fumes are heavier than air. so the will blow about 20 feet away, then maybe be picked up by a mild higher current of air overhead, then that air can drift behind you and be blasted into your workspace. so basically the fan is developing a giant "donut" shaped air current that returns behind you.
sorry if i was too general with my description. dangerous chemicals are a part of the business and i'd hate to have someone burn their lungs "sticking to the written word". thanks for the heads up scott.
sorry if i was too general with my description. dangerous chemicals are a part of the business and i'd hate to have someone burn their lungs "sticking to the written word". thanks for the heads up scott.
OldPaint
New Member
maybe you can try FULL strength Thinners with a scourer, Scrub on, wash off with straight water
ARE ALL YOU POEPLE INSANE??? ARTBOT INCLUDED.
seem none of you know what the hell your doing. how many of you have ever worked in an AUTO BODY SHOP/DETAILING???
NONE......i would say or you wouldnt come up with ahy of the dumb stuff i just read here.
1. oxidized painted surface on VEHICLES:
thinner is the last thing you want to put on automotive paint. IT DESOLVES PAINT!!!!!
DRAIN CLEANER..... is stupid.
2. oxidized paint on buildinds or signs: this is a totally different PAINT!!! thinners on it will wash away ALL THE PAINT.........so will drain cleaner.
3. YOU ALL NEED TO LEARN what are classifed as HOT, MEDIUM, & LOW voc chemicals.
THINNER in not in the last 2!!!
heres a proper approch from many years of doing both signs and body and fender work.
1. start with the simplest and least harmful. SOAP & WATER. and scrub the surface with a medium stiff bristle hand brush.
2. NEXT, if that dont work, get a higher detergent soap. like DAWN, TIDE, CHEER stuff you would wash dirty clothes or pots and pans with.
3. NEXT, try windex, or an all purpose cleaner.
4. NEXT, mover up to SIMPLY GREEN, 409, PURPLE POWER, i will assure you, 409, purple power will more then likly be as stong as you will need to go.
5.NEXT, if these dont remover the oxidation, then i would go to a petroleum based reducer..........MINERAL SPIRITS, TURPS. this would be a low voc chemical. would remove only the dead paint(on automotive surfaces)if its a building or a sign, it might remove ALL THE PAINT.!!!!
6. all atomotive paint manafactures make a product called PREP-SOL, FINAL-WASH. these will clean stuff above product wont touch. there is also BUG & TAR REMOVER, use it with caution.
7.IF, its only an AUTOMOTIVE surface, then AND ONLY THEN, would i attempt a medium VOC reducer. now these would be ACRYLIC ENAMEL REDUCERS(these are available in 3 or 4 heat ranges. get the slowest drying one.
8.NEXT, is HOT VOC... laquere thinners. these also can be bought in different heat ranges. BUT MOST OF THEM WILL EAT THE PAINT OFF A VEHICLE.
9. these chemicals should never be put on paint.........unless you want the paint GONE.
ZYLENE & MEK............
ARE ALL YOU POEPLE INSANE??? ARTBOT INCLUDED.
seem none of you know what the hell your doing. how many of you have ever worked in an AUTO BODY SHOP/DETAILING???
NONE......i would say or you wouldnt come up with ahy of the dumb stuff i just read here.
1. oxidized painted surface on VEHICLES:
thinner is the last thing you want to put on automotive paint. IT DESOLVES PAINT!!!!!
DRAIN CLEANER..... is stupid.
2. oxidized paint on buildinds or signs: this is a totally different PAINT!!! thinners on it will wash away ALL THE PAINT.........so will drain cleaner.
3. YOU ALL NEED TO LEARN what are classifed as HOT, MEDIUM, & LOW voc chemicals.
THINNER in not in the last 2!!!
heres a proper approch from many years of doing both signs and body and fender work.
1. start with the simplest and least harmful. SOAP & WATER. and scrub the surface with a medium stiff bristle hand brush.
2. NEXT, if that dont work, get a higher detergent soap. like DAWN, TIDE, CHEER stuff you would wash dirty clothes or pots and pans with.
3. NEXT, try windex, or an all purpose cleaner.
4. NEXT, mover up to SIMPLY GREEN, 409, PURPLE POWER, i will assure you, 409, purple power will more then likly be as stong as you will need to go.
5.NEXT, if these dont remover the oxidation, then i would go to a petroleum based reducer..........MINERAL SPIRITS, TURPS. this would be a low voc chemical. would remove only the dead paint(on automotive surfaces)if its a building or a sign, it might remove ALL THE PAINT.!!!!
6. all atomotive paint manafactures make a product called PREP-SOL, FINAL-WASH. these will clean stuff above product wont touch. there is also BUG & TAR REMOVER, use it with caution.
7.IF, its only an AUTOMOTIVE surface, then AND ONLY THEN, would i attempt a medium VOC reducer. now these would be ACRYLIC ENAMEL REDUCERS(these are available in 3 or 4 heat ranges. get the slowest drying one.
8.NEXT, is HOT VOC... laquere thinners. these also can be bought in different heat ranges. BUT MOST OF THEM WILL EAT THE PAINT OFF A VEHICLE.
9. these chemicals should never be put on paint.........unless you want the paint GONE.
ZYLENE & MEK............
artbot
New Member
that's a lot of caps! awesome! i think made it clear to dilute it in the same way that you are discussing differing measures of "hot-ness" of solvents. the sodium hydroxide being at about a 1:500 ratio. so no it will not peel the paint right off of a vehicle. but it will go after loose particles or organic material in a much different way than a light solvent.
OldPaint
New Member
again art bot.........how much time you ever spent in a AUTO BODY SHOP? i worked at NAPA auto parts 15 years, was a paint specialist. also was the outside salesman, which took me to every body fender/detail business. + i been in sign PAINTING when that all there was...WAS PAINT...hows that for caps? good try to distract the point, but wont work.
artbot
New Member
old paint. i never said "this is what you should use" i said "this is what i do" "you might try it" (paraphrased). i don't need to distract from something that i didn't say. honestly i have no idea about the actual application we are even discussing? i'm picturing a guy brings in a box truck that's been parked underneath a tree for five years covered algea and polen? i guarantee that you know more about paint than any of us here. now that i know you do, next time i'm curious about trying a special two part or ceramic clear coat, i'll pm you.
OldPaint
New Member
i also do pottery.........ceramic coatings .........hehehehehehehehe
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Potter-Joe/138414992919247
i forgot to mention PRESSURE WASHER...... for the truck you discribed. but then as i tell people who bring me crap like that instead of taking it to a professional vehicle wash/body shop..............I TELL THEM, i charge SIGN INSTALLATION PRICES for doing a vehicle wash!!!! they usually get the idea, that they ARE RESPONSIBLE for the surface condidtion of the vehicle...........they want lettered!!!!
http://www.facebook.com/#!/pages/Potter-Joe/138414992919247
i forgot to mention PRESSURE WASHER...... for the truck you discribed. but then as i tell people who bring me crap like that instead of taking it to a professional vehicle wash/body shop..............I TELL THEM, i charge SIGN INSTALLATION PRICES for doing a vehicle wash!!!! they usually get the idea, that they ARE RESPONSIBLE for the surface condidtion of the vehicle...........they want lettered!!!!
CheapVehicleWrap
New Member
Artbot, any chance of a visual on this sodium hydroxide eating eyeballs? I'm curious to google... but you know, I'm afraid of eyeball things. I imagine it wouldn't be cheap to fix either.
Wiggum PI
New Member
Do you do a package tour for this?
visual800
Active Member
thinner will do nothing to a paint finish. paint thinner is useless in this situation. Paint thinner will NOT affect oxidation nor will it wash paint away.
Now you could always go on roof and dribble some urethane thinner down the side if want results like that....THAT is not what you wanna do. these suggestions are ludacris and your making more a damn mess than fixing the situation
I would wash the vehicle with one of the round bath lufas and some soft scrub, rinse and repeat. I have found soft scrub really cleans and removes all of this stuff. rubbing alcohol also will do it but damn you will use 30 rolls of paper towels!
SOFT SCRUB AND LUFA!
Now you could always go on roof and dribble some urethane thinner down the side if want results like that....THAT is not what you wanna do. these suggestions are ludacris and your making more a damn mess than fixing the situation
I would wash the vehicle with one of the round bath lufas and some soft scrub, rinse and repeat. I have found soft scrub really cleans and removes all of this stuff. rubbing alcohol also will do it but damn you will use 30 rolls of paper towels!
SOFT SCRUB AND LUFA!
CanuckSigns
Active Member
get a quote from a body shop to properly do the job, and explain to your customer that it needs to be done before the graphics are applied, give them the option of getting it done themselves or you can take it to the body shop for $xx.
We are signmakers and/or installers, not auto body repairers, stick with what you know best and let someone with more knowledge about automotive paint finishes worry about it.
you did tell them there would be an extra charge for prepping the vehicle if it was not ready for graphics right?
We are signmakers and/or installers, not auto body repairers, stick with what you know best and let someone with more knowledge about automotive paint finishes worry about it.
you did tell them there would be an extra charge for prepping the vehicle if it was not ready for graphics right?
visual800
Active Member
it doesnt matter cause Ive noticed everytime you ask a customer is the vehicle ready for signage OH YES IT IS! we just washed it....whatever