Profiling...Been At this for a year, no luck

[astro8]

The artwork dayusmc has created is excellent, line are type with minimal gradient (what I saw), essentially could b e printed offset as spot colors.

In SignLab can you tweak spot colors? Like say I have PMS 185 and the printed version is way too yellow, where I can knock down the yellow just in PMS 185? If that is possible, with this type of work you would need just minimal profiling.

I haven't looked into the Signlab RIP in any depth as I don't use it at all. How it usually works is that if you send a named colour to a rip...say PMS185, (it doesn't matter if it black or blue or red) the rip replaces this named colour with it's own colour from it's 'palette'/'look up table'.

I can change the values in my rip as to what it prints PMS185 as. I could change it to print green if I wanted to. Signlab would have a way of going about this as well.

So, say I found my PMS185 coming out a little too yellow. I print out 'similiar colors' function in my rip, pick the colour I want, (it'll be in there somewhere) type in the new values that correspond to the colour I want and save it to my rip's 'PMS look up table' (I'm avoiding using "swatch' as it just gets confusing)
From now on my rip will print my version of PMS185, no matter if it is a green but named PMS185 it will come out a correct Pantone 185C (Red)

 

[astro8]

I'm confused about this topic.
Speaking about my experience the steps to profile a CMYK ink printer are:

This is correct...dayusmc just has a hell of a time understanding it. I think he has colour management on whilst printing his charts. I also think he has problems discerning his ink limits.

 

[dayusmc]

I was thinking about it. My "Problem" could be in a few areas. One, in signlab's rip (and print mode package) I think color management is turned off. I think when color management (I think that is input profiles, in the print package) is turned "off" it is set to use "Get from print mode". So I believe color management was turned off. Antonyu's explanation of how it works (From what all of you say is correct) is how I thought it works. The other place I might be doing something wrong is "Max ink Limits" after the Chart prints out (The chart with c, m, y, k, my, ect....) in the instutions i am supose to adjust the max limits of each color. But the all look best at 100%. Since I am having so much trouble with Red, I cut yellow back to 75%, finished my profile and did a print. The red is still orangey.

A side note- and maybe this might help to figure out why I am so screwed up. When I make a box, color it 255,0,0 RED, then in signlab convert it to a fill (In signlab, that makes it a bitmap) and print it- it is the "right" color red!!But is I print that box, leaving it as vector art it is too orangey My guess is that it has something to do with the input tags usped to print bitmaps. This is done with a profile that I made using signlabs profile wizard a few months ago, using all the defaults. I don't know if that helps to explain my problem or not.

 

[dayusmc]

Here is a pic of a print that I did. I know it is blury, and that it is subject to you monitor. But I just wanted to show everyone the difference in the reds. The Swatch on the left is of a pattern fill that I made from 255 red a long time ago. I tried to recreate this now, and can not get the same results. The next 2 swatchs are of- RGB 255 and- CMYK M100 Y100 those are now printing pretty much the same. Believe it or not one my monitor (I know that doesn't mean anything) the left swatch look orange and the other 2 look Red. Not sure is this pic helps or not, but I figure I would show everone. The light that I "used" when taking the pick was 27W FML 5500K, no flash. It isn't the best pic when I compare the print out to the pic, but it shows the differents between the 3 swatchs. So this is why I say my printer/Ink can produce better reds than I am getting- sometimes I get them, but the problem is Deffinatly in the RIP and color profile.

 

[Antonyu]

dayusmc, don't think! Make shure the color management is OFF when printing the test charts!

It seems to me that you are trying to hard and messing around with everything at the same time. Don't try to discover the wheel once again, just follow the correct procedures of making a color profile.

 

[dayusmc]

dayusmc, don't think! Make shure the color management is OFF when printing the test charts!

It seems to me that you are trying to hard and messing around with everything at the same time. Don't try to discover the wheel once again, just follow the correct procedures of making a color profile.

Well when I say "I think Color Management is turned off" I set the settings in the print mode to exactly as said. Some comcerns I have is it is very hard to tell with cadlink. I had a cutting problem when I first bought my printer- turns out it was Signlab's VPM controling the preasure. I uncheck the box, but sometime it comes back on out of the blue. SignLab is hard to tell what is going on. I have been making profiles for the last 3 days and nothing is changing. Not for nothing- it is not rocket science and it still is not working corectly. Red is still coming out the same. Something is deffinatly changing my colors. I would have to say it must be some sort of input profile. SignLabs VPM is not looking to good to me. I am going to attempt to make a profile in VersaWorks (I have no idea how to do it, but I am going to try) One thinng I am seeing with signlab, NOTHING is consistent. I have heard this many times before from my friend that has been using it since before it was signlab. Hopefully the tech will call me back tomorrow. One question- In Signlab (Not the VPM) if I turn color management off or on, does that effect my prints coming out of the vpm? I unchecked "Use input profiles when in Print and Cut" like the instructions said. But not sure it is really doing that.

 

[P Wagner]

Roland has placed a profile creation document onto their web site for profile creation using Versaworks 3.x. Their US web site is www.rolanddga.com. Search for a document called 'Creating Profiles with Versaworks'. It should be pretty straightforward, although it's content discussing ink limiting is close to non-existant.

 

[dayusmc]

Roland has placed a profile creation document onto their web site for profile creation using Versaworks 3.x. Their US web site is www.rolanddga.com. Search for a document called 'Creating Profiles with Versaworks'. It should be pretty straightforward, although it's content discussing ink limiting is close to non-existant.

I found one document on there "Color Calibrating a Prit Mode, Linearizing your printer" But that one isn't real what I want to do. I want to creat a profile useing that chart with those 600 or 800 swatchs that get scanned (By the i1). The document that I found only does a CMYK chart- swatch by swatch. I am hopeing to do it like the way that it is done in the eye one software.

On another note, I exported a few test swatchs from Signlab as a level 3 eps and printed then with Versaworks and the reds were actually red. So for what ever reason, I have to say that it is SignLabs RIP that is messed up. I created 5 print modes in the last 2 days and they were all messed up. They were almost all alike- but terrible!! I am hoping the sign lab tech calls me tomorrow so I can discuss it with him. The only thing that I can think of is that the program is messed up. I can rebuild the print computer again, by I really don't see why I would have to do that, I just wiped it not to long ago and redid everything.

I think the best thing is to try and mess with versaworks for now and look into getting a better RIP. I really didn't want to spent the money or have to mess with exporting and inporting and asigning colors and cutlines.

I noticed that signlab has a product that works directly with versaworks now. I wonder if my signlab will do the same thing.

Oh almost forgot to answer a question from someone. I mostly print motocross graphics for a couple of my friends and some stickers for some of my friends that have bussiness. I also did a bout wrap for charity for cancer. So yes this costs me A LOT of money for a hobbie (as my wife just recently pointed out). I mostly got into this because a client of mine that owed me a lot of money was going out of bussiness and could afford to pay me, so he gave me some printing equipment instead. I am the IT guy for a couple local sign guys, so that is kind of how I got into it. I don't do anything for money (I even pay for all the material for the kidds I do motocross graphics for). But like I said it cost me a lot of money. But I like to learn and help other people (hopefully i can use some knowledge gained here to help my other graphics friend) I know it doesn't make sense to spend all this money for a hobby and not make any money back on it, but at least I can print cool stuff for myself!!!

BTW- I know I can't spell

 

[astro8]

Hey dayusmc

I've been reading through posts on the Cadlink site and seems like you are not alone with your profiling issues.

Wait to see what the Cadlink tech has to say tomorrow.

In the mean time...

http://support.rolanddga.com/docs/Documents/departments/Technical%20Services/Manuals%20and%20Guides/VersaWorks3_Profiling.pdf

 

[dayusmc]

Hey dayusmc

I've been reading through posts on the Cadlink site and seems like you are not alone with your profiling issues.

Wait to see what the Cadlink tech has to say tomorrow.

In the mean time...

http://support.rolanddga.com/docs/D.../Manuals and Guides/VersaWorks3_Profiling.pdf

Well that is a good thing and a bad thing. It is good because that means I am not as dumb as I look from all my posts. But a bad thing because I really like Signlab as an all in one design and print and cut, and I believe it has some problems. Like I said, it is a hobby for me so I like the all in one simplicity of it. Talking with my wife tonight, she reminded me that when I first got signlab, I made a print profile and it was really good. It was as close to WYSIWYG as I tought possible. I don't remember when it changed. What I do know is that my friend has the same problems with his prints. He has a SP300v like me (He uses stock Inks) and signlab (He is why I bought signlab to begin with) He uses a stock roland profile, but he can print one something one day and the next day print the same thing and get different results. I told him he was crazy, but know I am seeing what he is talking about. SignLab is not looking so good to me anymore.

 

[astro8]

Maybe it has changed during an upgrade. It looks to me like colour management is 'stuck' on whilst you are trying to profile. Cadlink should address this as there seems to be quite a few that are getting 'wrong colours' as they are saying.
Anyway, at least read through the Versaworks .pdf whilst waiting for the tech to get back to you as you will gain more insight into profiling.
........................
added..
Rip and profiling programmes always seem to have some kind of problems. In PhotoPrint for example, the profiling module would print the reference swatches for a Spectroscan in reverse, so you can just imagine what I was going through reading swatch by swatch with a Spectrolino until I figured it out and mirrored the file. Then the data was in reverse, so I had to use a utility programme, read the data then import into a word processor, format the data, then import back into PhotoPrint...but I ended up with a good profile.

 

[dayusmc]

Maybe it has changed during an upgrade. It looks to me like colour management is 'stuck' on whilst you are trying to profile. Cadlink should address this as there seems to be quite a few that are getting 'wrong colours' as they are saying.
Anyway, at least read through the Versaworks .pdf whilst waiting for the tech to get back to you as you will gain more insight into profiling.

I actully thoght that might be the problem. So last time I rebuilt my computer, I tried to make a profile before updating. I don't think it came out any good. But I am going to read the Versaworks pdf you gave me the link to. Also I am skimming through a book I read about color management (Color Management, by Bruce Fraser Chris Murphy and Fred Bunting), just to brush up on the terminolgy, so I don't look like such and ass.

Do you use Signlab? What RIP do you use?

Takes again for everyone's patiance with me and help!!

 

[CheapVehicleWrap]

This book could help...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180449994166&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

 

[dayusmc]

This book could help...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180449994166&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT

But I don't use Flexi. I had Flexi 8.5 a while back, but I didn't like it so I sold it.

 

[astro8]

Do you use Signlab? What RIP do you use?

I use Signlab for some vinyl cutting and for 2D routing it's great and engraving.

I use Ergosoft RIP, it's expensive. The profiling module is over $4000 Just the cutting module to be able to print/cut from my Summa is $2000 but it's a fantastic rip.

If I were you, I'd really try push tech support and get Signlab printing at an acceptable level. Others seem quite pleased with the results they're getting. Being able to design, print and cut from the same programme is very convenient.

 

[P Wagner]

The book you referenced (Fraser, Murphy et al) is a terrific overview of the theory of color management, but it is unlikely to help with application-specific questions, unless that application is Photoshop.

In my opinion, Versaworks is a very solid RIP which can compete feature-for-feature with Onyx, Wasatch, SAi, and other widely used RIPs. I cannot say the same for Cadlink's RIP, although to be fair, my exposure to it is limited to the product available several years ago (version 6/7 I recall).

 

[dayusmc]

I use Signlab for some vinyl cutting and for 2D routing it's great and engraving.

I use Ergosoft RIP, it's expensive. The profiling module is over $4000 Just the cutting module to be able to print/cut from my Summa is $2000 but it's a fantastic rip.

If I were you, I'd really try push tech support and get Signlab printing at an acceptable level. Others seem quite pleased with the results they're getting. Being able to design, print and cut from the same programme is very convenient.

I heard Ergosoft and ONYX were real great RIPS. It has been my experiance with signlab that if they can't fix the problem right away, they never fix it. I have been working this color issue for over a year. Delt with Signlabs techs a few times on it. But mostly I got, "it should work". It almost seems like they don't believe me when I tell them the color is bad. We will see what they say tomorrow. They call when I am at work, so I am not in front of my printer. I use to have 2 roland sp300v at work, so when they called I could just test on them. But I switched Units, so I don't have the printers anymore at work. I have my computer with me, but they can't remote into it because of security reasons.

 

[dayusmc]

The book you referenced (Fraser, Murphy et al) is a terrific overview of the theory of color management, but it is unlikely to help with application-specific questions, unless that application is Photoshop.

In my opinion, Versaworks is a very solid RIP which can compete feature-for-feature with Onyx, Wasatch, SAi, and other widely used RIPs. I cannot say the same for Cadlink's RIP, although to be fair, my exposure to it is limited to the product available several years ago (version 6/7 I recall).

They do like to use photoshop in that book. I got it just to understand theory of what was going on. One thing is for sure, Cadlink puts stuff (Settings) all over the place, it is sometimes hard to tell if you have all the settings correct. I want to start useing VersaWorks. I think Signlab has a new version that works directly with VersaWorks. I think it sends stuff right to versaworks. It would be nice if it was easier to use like that. Now my mission is to figure out how versaworks works. I have to see how to set up files in signlab to send to versaworks (I don't want any embbeded profiles going to versaworks and messing stuff up) Then I have to figure out how to "assign colors" to my prints. How does versaworks knows what colors I want to print?

 

[Bly]

You seem a bit confused with the whole input and output profile thing.

Just think of profiles as an 'interpretation' to go from one device to another. See the image attached.

When an image is created in say Photoshop or a scanner it is assigned a profile so another device will know how it should look. In most cases when someone gives you a file you won't know what profiles it's been assigned so you have to guess and use the Photoshop standards - US Web Coated (Swop) v2 for CMYK and sRGB IEC61966-2.1 for RGB. You can always experiment here if you like to see what happens.

You will also usually be given the option to choose a rendering intent.
Relative colorimetric is usually your best option here, or try perceptual if you want to see what difference it makes. Use the same intent for vectors and bitmaps or you might get different colour when images and vectors are mixed together in a document.

The output profile will be the profile specifically created for your printer, ink and media. No need to change this just make sure it's accurate and the correct one.

 

[heyskull]

Can I just add my bit into this.
Signlab sucks big time at printing.
We had Signlab 6.0, 7.0 and finally 7.1 and in the end I gave up and now our Valuejet runs on Wasatch without an issue.
Signlab is way way to complicated for us signmakers.
I see no reason that we should have to profile our printers as Cadlink should have done this as they are selling it as a RIP!!
I must have spent 3 years trying to get consistant matching of colours.
Signlab won't even come close to colours give it in as a bad job.

SC