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Random Next Day Bubbles

Discussion in 'General Signmaking Topics' started by TheSnowman, Apr 23, 2019.

  1. TheSnowman

    TheSnowman Major Contributor

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    I just did a giant order for the local marina and everything was done and looked good until today I came in and noticed basically every single sign of probably the 75 signs we did has these random bubbles in it.

    Everything was good when I laid it down, it was on air release vinyl, and brand new max metal. The crazy thing now is, they don’t even come out. It’s like it lost its air release. Never seen anything like it in 15 years. Anyone have any theories? It was the same temp in the room the entire time. Hoping I don’t have to re-do the entire order.

    Might have to look hard in the pictures but I did the best I could in my lighting to see it.


    C8AF7BF1-4513-47D4-B75A-BD12F1E1273B.jpeg 15CF7CB3-5263-47F3-BE8C-471BBC1B4B51.jpeg
     
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  2. bannertime

    bannertime Very Active Member

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    No
    What's the vinyl and laminate used? What printer? How were the graphics applied?
     
  3. TheSnowman

    TheSnowman Major Contributor

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    HP Latex 310. Avery Intermediate Air Release, and Arlon Calendered Laminate. Same combo I've been using for years with zero issues. Actually, these same rolls have been used for a couple weeks and zero other issues. Laid down with a big squeegee.
     
  4. bannertime

    bannertime Very Active Member

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    Did the MaxMetal still have their plastic sheeting before application? What did you use to clean the panels? Did you ever touch the adhesive?
     
  5. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    Could it of been too humid?
     
  6. bigben

    bigben Very Active Member

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    can't help. But I'm following this thread.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  7. TheSnowman

    TheSnowman Major Contributor

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    Max Metal had their normal plastic on it that they always do, but I haven't ever in 15 years cleaned it before applying anything. Didn't touch the adhesive in any way. Laid it down removing the liner as I went. Humidity was my thought, but literally it's been the same weather since I laid them down.

    I didn't know rather to just maybe hit it with heat, or hope that something happens in the next couple days that they go away.

    The non-air release part is the baffling part. I've never seen an air release vinyl become non-air release.
     
  8. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Many times, this comes from not enough pressure being used when applying the vinyl onto the substrate. What looks and appears to be totally flat, will yield little bubbles all over the place a day or so later..... even a few hours later, they might start to show up. I'd apply heat.... and a lot of it, and use a lotta elbow grease. There's no quick fix for this.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    I never have either...That's interesting. I too will follow this thread. Applying a bunch of 3M air-release to maxmetal as we speak.

    I second what Gino says about not enough pressure. I've had non-airrelase bubble up after being hit with the sun the first time...
     
  10. TimToad

    TimToad Very Active Member

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    You don't wipe the panels with alcohol or wax remover/degreaser?

    While not an adhesive, the masking definitely leaves some kind of residue or contaminants on the surface.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. TheSnowman

    TheSnowman Major Contributor

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    Nope, never once in 15 years have I ever done it. I did another 4X8 on the exact same day and it still looks ship shape normal.

     
  12. petepaz

    petepaz Major Contributor

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    we always clean with alcohol just to be safe. that is weird though. did you try poking with a needle or point of a blade and try and work it out that way?
    do you have a laminator you can run them through. maybe heat and a few passes through the laminator will
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  13. equippaint

    equippaint Very Active Member

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    Am I the only one that doesn't squeegee after mounting with a laminator? Sometimes I hit the edges but not always and haven't had any problems. It does make me a touch nervous though
     
  14. TheSnowman

    TheSnowman Major Contributor

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    Well, believe it or not, I don't own a laminator. 75% of what we do is temporary auction signs that we have to lay down by hand because the edges of them are beat up from transport, so I've just always laid them down with the big squeegee. It's never failed me, so I'm just trying to figure out what's up. I'm going to spend some time on them tomorrow and see what I can do with some heat, but not looking forward to this. Of course it happened on my largest order I've had in a while.
     
  15. TimToad

    TimToad Very Active Member

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    No, you are not the only one. It would seem to be waste of effort given the superior pressure and evenness of machine mounting. We'll bray the edges with a roller, but the whole idea of using the laminator is that its superior to hand mounted for the afore mentioned reasons.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. CDS PROFESSIONAL SERVICES

    CDS PROFESSIONAL SERVICES New Member

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    Did you laminate them?
     
  17. CDS PROFESSIONAL SERVICES

    CDS PROFESSIONAL SERVICES New Member

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    Did you laminate them?
     
  18. TheSnowman

    TheSnowman Major Contributor

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    Yes, they're laminated.
     
  19. CDS PROFESSIONAL SERVICES

    CDS PROFESSIONAL SERVICES New Member

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    I just learned the hard way. Before lamination of any vinyl. You must let product degas let the VOC dissipate. If not that gas causes bubbles.
     
  20. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    DP
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2019
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