ROFL.... "Print" shops

[mpn]

You can order them online from a wholesaler for .89 sq. = $5.40ea. x 11= $ 59.40 you would be at $70.29 with shipping taking that you don't need to do anything with artwork let alone 11 different artworks, is just not worth it. IMO

Commercial sign shop printing has been commoditized to the point that most small shops will be better off outsourcing the production of these products. The big production houses are set up to handle volume and are able to offer prices considerably lower than a small shop that does not use high speed industrial printers, advanced material handling, loading docks and storage, packaging and crating, and discounted shipping costs.

For the time being wholesale prices can be marked up with a GPM of %20 – %40, but increasingly wholesale prices are being made available to the end user. A small local shop can still make good profits on installations and design. My long view is that the industry is changing, and that small commercial sign shops that specializes in design (both graphic design and mechanical design), specification and planning, permit secural, and installation and maintenance – without the expenses of production and fabrication – will be the future of our industry.

This is what happened to the majority of commercial print shops that the OP is ROFL at. The smaller shops like most on this forum have (an assumption on my part) are going to see exactly what happened to the printing industry. The bigger gang run job shops will bring pricing down to the point it makes zero sense to produce products in house unless you have a niche product.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

This is what happened to the majority of commercial print shops that the OP is ROFL at. The smaller shops like most on this forum have (an assumption on my part) are going to see exactly what happened to the printing industry. The bigger gang run job shops will bring pricing down to the point it makes zero sense to produce products in house unless you have a niche product.

Yea, but so far we got several things on our side... it takes skill to install and make these signs, and they are too big to ship.

Print companies deal with small items that can easily ship

 

[TimToad]

I usually mark up 100% or pretty close to it.

I don't get all the jobs, but when I do they are worth my time

Like most signmakers with some experience, you probably also factor in the intrinsic value of the advertising involved as well. Something that the "commodification", pro-broker and race to the bottom crowd never seem to incorporate.

 

[Gino]

Our one cat just started drinking goat's milk. He loves the sh!t and it's stopped him from meowing in the middle of the night. I think when school starts again, he's gonna want a bigger lunch box with a thermos for milk now. Betcha we created a monster. When the wash is dry and is brought in, it smells so fresh, even in the basket. Nice weather for hanging out wash, not to mention spreading seaweed in the garden for fertilizing.
Better year, this time. I can't believe the difference.

Okay folks, now back to your normal programming..........................................​

 

[equippaint]

This is what happened to the majority of commercial print shops that the OP is ROFL at. The smaller shops like most on this forum have (an assumption on my part) are going to see exactly what happened to the printing industry. The bigger gang run job shops will bring pricing down to the point it makes zero sense to produce products in house unless you have a niche product.

It's not the same. Offset printing operations have always been equipment intensive and volume based. They are still able to exist on a regional scale like they always have. The sign business has never needed to operate on a large scale in order to survive.
I just don't get this obsession with outsourcing all of your production and the internal push to commodify the industry. Eventually, these guys are going to turn around and eat your lunch especially when they're watching you markup their prices 200-400%.

 

[Gino]

When you don't know how, have the smarts, the equipment or the talent one must farm out. It used to be called brokering and was frowned upon by most.... if not ALL sign shops. Those people are like parasites. They will underbid you by a dollar to steal the sale. They will do things a normal business person wouldn't do. They have no idea what it takes to run a business. It's like they sell trinkets and only wanna make pennies. These people have been around a long time and suck the life outta business all the time. Selling mugs and t-shirts is one thing, but acting like ya know the industry and pretending is just wrong.

And....... the next person who says, well, we all broker to an extent, so what's wrong with it ?? No, that's different. At our shop, we do about 95% of all of our work in-house. There are certain things we cannot do, thus the need to sub some things out. We don't model a whole business by buying everything as cheap as we can on-line and selling it for whatever we can get. There was a guy, locally around here, who used to sell his outdoor signs on paper... wrapped in saran wrap, stapled to a piece of marine plywood. He was an Instant Signs & Banners franchise guy. What a d!ckwad.​

 

[TimToad]

My biggest gripe with the "broker" and outsourcer types besides the damage they do to a local market pricewise is the deception being perpetrated upon the clients who really don't know any better. Nowhere on their websites or marketing materials does it state that they are doing 5% in house and 95% outsourcing.

I get it, try to make it seem like you can do anything and everything to appeal to the most potential clients, but at least describe something about your equipment, pride in manufacturing, SOMETHING that shows that you're not just a cell phone or rented desk somewhere when others in your area have invested their life's blood and money in a shop, equipment, employees, etc. Show some respect to those who have created the price baseline you are now ruining.

In another similarly themed thread I described a new one person shop in our town.

Last weekend was the biggest event of the year, a gigantic wine and food festival attended by a couple thousand guests and hosted by our Chamber Of Commerce. Our shop has been a 110% member for 11 years even predating our purchase of the business, I sat on the Board of Directors for three years, volunteered at every event the Chamber sponsored, donated plenty of sign work, both my wife and I have volunteered at this event every year and last year worked from 8am to 9:30pm helping, etc......

They hired a new CEO this spring and guess who she had do a couple grand worth of signs and offset printing for the event to "reward" a new member for joining the Chamber?

Yup...... The guy with no equipment or shop and in business less than a year who is offering banners and signs at a fraction of the cost and offset printing at similar markups.

 

[Johnny Best]

I learned at an early age not to volunteer. It seems they worry about the bottom line cost more than people like yourselves who have spent countless hours working for free. Hope you learned an valuable lesson.

 

[TimToad]

I learned at an early age not to volunteer. It seems they worry about the bottom line cost more than people like yourselves who have spent countless hours working for free. Hope you learned an valuable lesson.

I don't want to get hammered over going off topic, so I'll make this my last comment on this subject.

It isn't working for "free", its to help better my community and make it a nicer, more friendly place to live, work and play. I have an altruistic personality and most large scale public events intended to raise funds for non-profits like this one would NOT happen without volunteers. Most non-profit organizations don't have the budget to pay help for every single person needed to hold an event.

I was a swimmer, baseball player and runner in high school. I also worked summers as a lifeguard, which was a popular job for swimmers. I was once out at a forest preserve and one of my friends was drowning. Without a second's hesitation, i dove in and saved his life while 50 others stood there on the shore laughing about how stupid our friend looked. He'd be dead if I took your advice. That's the biggest lesson i learned from being who I am.

My problem with this particular case is that the existing employees who have been at the Chamber for years knew how much my wife and I went above and beyond the call of duty compared to many other regular members. They should have gone to bat for our shop and told the new CEO that not even putting the orders out to bid to us and the two other existing sign companies who are also members wouldn't be right.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Volunteer without expecting anything in return.

Although you are volunteering and thats more then most people would do, so that's admirable.

They threw the new guy a bone....let it be.

 

[Johnny Best]

 

[kcollinsdesign]

One of the features my company offers that is a huge selling point is that we outsource our production. Two major sign companies that made everything in house have had to close, and the other major company is switching to outsourcing and looking to downsize their physical plant. Our customers are happy to see the quality of their factory produced product, and they also enjoy the vast range of options available to them. What they like the most, however, is the cheaper prices and fast turn-around times. Everybody wins, and everybody goes home happy!

With production hassles out of my hair, I can concentrate on design, and make a killing using just a MacBook and Adobe CC from my home studio. Our installation and maintenance operation is in a seperate building, and is growing and expanding to other markets.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

When out-sourcing production, not only do you save in production costs and overhead, but you are also cutting out the sign shop supplier. Production factories can negotiate direct deals with materials manufacturers, and do not need the services of a repackager or local sign supply business.

 

[gnemmas]

Amazon, world's largest broker. Apple does make any of it's products.

For 32 years, we have roll printer, roll cutter, laminator, flatbed printer, flatbed cutter, laser cutter. 200k invested equipment.

Retired this year, opened a new sign shop in a new town, using my knowledge, experience and time, production will be done by local, regional sign companies.

So far, getting 50% job from my quote. Guess I am too expensive.

 

[equippaint]

Amazon, world's largest broker.

Yeah and recently they have announced that they are not going to be purchasing their products the same way and moving closer to single source which is going to screw all of the small guys that have relied on the platform to sell their goods. As far as I know, they also purchase and inventory products for items that their users prove sell well. They are not stupid, they use their sellers to determine demand and then undercut them which eliminates the risk that most retailers assume on their own dollar. It won't be that much longer before amazon is 100% direct and not order fulfilment anymore.

When out-sourcing production, not only do you save in production costs and overhead, but you are also cutting out the sign shop supplier. Production factories can negotiate direct deals with materials manufacturers, and do not need the services of a repackager or local sign supply business.

You're also missing on the profit and substance that comes from production.

 

[Gino]

So, if I understand this properly a company or even a single person working outta their dining room can buy and sell things cheaper than one who makes it themselves ??

So, I buy the raw materials and do nearly everything in-house under one roof and can oversee all the quality control and timeframes. Time, materials, overhead and profit. Kinda simple.

The broker needs to buy from someone who is doing the same as me, but at wholesale prices. However, you need to pay shipping and handling on top, plus you're at their mercy everything goes your way. Then, you must add profit and go look for someone to instal said product. Now, they generally don't give a big discount, if at all. You then, need to add profit to that cost and hope they can fit you in.... in a timely manner. Sounds doable, but why. Why wouldn't you want more control over what YOU are claiming to be your product ?? Not to mention, if something goes wrong, there goes your whole well timed project.

Again, being a broker is doable, but never really doing it and already having tons of equipment in place and long paid for, it just doesn't make sense, regardless of what people say as to things changing based on facts. Cripes, they said Hillary was gonna win 3 years ago and that was a total disaster.

I'll stick to what I know and hopefully it will keep me alive for years to come. ​

 

[TimToad]

One of the features my company offers that is a huge selling point is that we outsource our production. Two major sign companies that made everything in house have had to close, and the other major company is switching to outsourcing and looking to downsize their physical plant. Our customers are happy to see the quality of their factory produced product, and they also enjoy the vast range of options available to them. What they like the most, however, is the cheaper prices and fast turn-around times. Everybody wins, and everybody goes home happy!

With production hassles out of my hair, I can concentrate on design, and make a killing using just a MacBook and Adobe CC from my home studio. Our installation and maintenance operation is in a seperate building, and is growing and expanding to other markets.

"Everybody wins, and everybody goes home happy!"

I'm not sure how "everybody" in your local community wins as long time vendors dramatically downsize, cut their workforce, send local tax revenues plummeting, minimize local employment opportunities, etc..

The economies in the cities where all the large sign and large format graphics "factories" exist are certainly happy with your business model.

"With production hassles out of my hair" I got into this craft because I love using my creativity to take an idea from its conception to its final fabrication and then successful installation. To me and hopefully most other signmakers, that creative and monetary fulfillment considered labors of love, not "hassles".

"and make a killing" While I've always enjoyed a comfortable middle class existence thanks to applying myself and working in the sign industry, I've rarely met anyone who thought this was the easiest field to make a killing in.

 

[Gino]

This same method of doing work has been a problem in other areas. Chamber of Commerce was mentioned, but some years ago, we did a great amount of work for our city. They got cheap minded people and what they call thrifty and frugal people into certain committees. Started seeing banners go up, made on 7oz material instead of 14oz, as we had used. Needless to say, none of them lasted much more than a year, where ours would last maybe 2, 3 or 4 years, as long as the message didn't change. Oh, but they were cheaper. Almost $1.50 each cheaper and times maybe 300 banners, that equals $450. However, ya hadda put freight on top and then design costs up front.... along with the short lifespan, they sure were 'making a killing'. Oh yeah, not to mention, they hadda increase their budget like crazy every year, since us.... oh and the money we made on it and paid in the way of taxes was now being sent overseas.

Yep, now they don't do many banners, cause the city has no money, cause they're trying to help the illegals and set up camp for them, using those old budgets. Oops, and most of the signs are in spanish these days as the town is about 88% spanish...... just like the Can't idates speaking spanish on USofA debates. What a crock.

 

[TimToad]

Volunteer without expecting anything in return.

Although you are volunteering and thats more then most people would do, so that's admirable.

They threw the new guy a bone....let it be.

The only thing we ever "expect" is to have the process of how to choose a vendor for anything needed be straight up, transparent to all and have ALL four member shops be able to quote on every project being ordered and let the best combination of price, quality and service rule. It would be nice if all of a member's contributions of time, effort and money to the organization be factored in on top of just the price of something they need, but that's not the world we live in anymore.

Other friends and fellow Chamber members who volunteer every year and this year report not seeing the "new guy" anywhere in sight during the entire event in any capacity. What they did see is a lot of other angry, dissatisfied volunteers unhappy with the lack of organization, gratitude and effort by the new leadership. Go figure.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

The only thing we ever "expect" is to have the process of how to choose a vendor for anything needed be straight up, transparent to all and have ALL four member shops be able to quote on every project being ordered and let the best combination of price, quality and service rule. It would be nice if all of a member's contributions of time, effort and money to the organization be factored in on top of just the price of something they need, but that's not the world we live in anymore.

Other friends and fellow Chamber members who volunteer every year and this year report not seeing the "new guy" anywhere in sight during the entire event in any capacity. What they did see is a lot of other angry, dissatisfied volunteers unhappy with the lack of organization, gratitude and effort by the new leadership. Go figure.

Try not too be too concerned. You should be volunteering because you feel fulfilled by doing so. So what if management is sloppy... you step up and lead the pack. So what if they give a job to someone who doesn't show up... you don't know what that person is going through that weekend.

You seem to complain an awful lot about life events, about things that happen to you and focus on all that's wrong with the world. If California decided to allow a church to be built I would hope you consider attending, it might teach you to be a little happier.