Roland Disappointment XR-640

[rjssigns]

My 0.02 cents. There are simple things to check and I don't think the techs know how to do them. One is called tramming. It would require some disassembly of the machine and precision mandrels, but would be worth a shot. Others would be nip force and web tension. The latter can create havoc if not consistent.

Many tracking issues are generally related to tram. Web tension is another mitigating factor.(requires strain gauges on infeed and take-up) Nip force is more of a fine tuning device as long as it's relatively close to begin with.

When running fast web speeds a web guide is utilized, but that is another realm altogether.

I could write a lengthy treatise regarding the exact procedures and expected outcomes, but it's a moot point. (no one is going to pay for this type of testing)



Although I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn I do have 26 years experience building and qualifying paper processing equipment. Many of which deal with 6000lb rolls of product run in excess of 3000 feet per minute and make perfect splices while at speed. (zero margin for error)

 

[CarNate69]

Oh yes, this is definitely a tension problem, I can feel the difference in tension with my hand on each side when the printer gets to about the 10-20ft mark (no tools required) so you know it's waaay off.

 

[bulldozer]

so what'd roland give you to praise them in this post? I wouldn't be that impressed by the service if it took weeks to get them to finally budge....seems a bit of tap dancing going on behind the scenes.

:ROFLMAO:

you aren't too great at this trolling thing.

glad your problem got fixed. I wish I could send my roland tech from gsg out to you! he is awesome.

 

[Jack Knight1979]

This is very troubling. I run entire rolls through my Pro II's w.out stopping. I've been looking at an XF pretty seriously lately, as my Pro II's are OLD (but still working fine). I'm starting to worry about these new flagship Rolands. Andrew, do you have any suggestions to rectify this problem? Sounds like these printers are out of square????

 

[bulldozer]

Have you experienced this issue when not using the take up reel? (which would eliminate the media holders etc and point the finger directly at the take up)

Our XC-540 tracks 100% straight without the take-up and only walks when using it.

We're having our XR-650 installed next Tuesday.... I'm really hoping this take up tension issue doesn't show up with it.

i'm thinking it's a few and far between issue. i had a job that required me to run 3 full rolls. i ran a half a roll at a time, but just because i didn't want to put too much weight on the takeup. zero head hits. the only issue i did run into was the jackasses glued the end of the vinyl onto the core and the machine couldn't pull it off. ink just kept being layed over and over on the same spot...needless to say i had an ink party!

 

[CarNate69]

No, we don't have any issues when not using the take up reel, it runs fine UNTIL the take up starts tugging on the vinyl and you can tell, it just isn't pulling it straight.

Very troubling for a flagship machine to perform this way.

 

[Jack Knight1979]

I'm glad to hear that it is isolated to the TUR. Do you have a bent arm that connects to the dance bar? Is the TUR square on the frame? How are you taping the substrate onto the core of the TUR? Any chance the tension is not even when the material is first taped down? You've been around since the printingdigital.net days, so I know that you do your job well, stickercutting. These are the only ideas I can throw at this w/out seeing the printer first hand.

I'm sure Roland will step in and get you squared away ASAP. Keep us posted.

 

[CarNate69]

Yea, it's early on for this issue, I just thought I would bring it up that we experienced it too, is it an ACTUAL machine problem? We'll see. I'm not contacting Roland about it until we have tried EVERYTHING possible, every combination in the books. If they come out with a solution in the mean time, great, we'll be all for it.

Tonight we are printing with it and it seems to be fine on longer runs, we moved 1 of the the pinch rollers further over on the right hand side and it's pulling the tension evenly much better, much more reliably, so that is good. Every pinch roller is in use, with 2 almost side by side on the right hand side now.

My thinking is the rollers just simply don't have enough downward pressure and pulling force all the time to evenly pull all the material evenly all the time, this results in some unevenness with the tugging.

I know that taping it on the roll straight is totally critical, and am very paranoid about getting it straight every time. I pull it straight down with the tape already applied to the vinyl and let the tension determine where the tape is put, then press it down onto the roll smoothly. I then press the material outwards across the roll and add very small pieces of tape on the ends 1 at a time, so it rolls up smoothly.

 

[CarNate69]

We've tried multiple solutions, including moving pinch rollers, taping it at different moments on the take up, tightening things down completely, etc. etc. with some working temporarily, but overall, this machine WILL NOT print runs longer than 20-30ft before starting the dreaded "head rub" on the edges of the vinyl. As everyone knows, head rubs can mean some extremely expensive fixes later down the road, which no shop enjoys. It's clear looking at the back of the machine and the tension on the vinyl, that this machine cannot pull the material straight, causing the wrinkle that results in the head rub.

Disappointed for sure we have to babysit a "flagship" "production" machine.

We'll be in touch with our Roland dealer, but I think this machine has serious issues with this take up mentioned in this post.

We can get it to come straight through the machine if we "shim" under the vinyl. We taped 2 stacks of post-it's under the moving vinyl on the front of the print heater with some painters tape, this creates tension on the vinyl and allows the vinyl to come through cleanly / lay flatter in the print head area, essentially puling out the crease as it moves...seems to work well.

 

[JoshLoring]

Hi everyone,
My new roland has problems tracking media over 30' also. Roland is well aware of the problem and as far as I know Roland Japan is working on a solution. I think it's good for anyone using the XR's to be in contact with your dealer if you are having tracking issues so that it can be adressed. If you got a new one, my 2 cents is to watch closely on long runs so that you don't get head strikes.

 

[player]

I hope Roland is replacing any heads that get a headstrike.

 

[bulldozer]

still haven't had these issues.

 

[CarNate69]

Any update on this? I highly doubt they will be able to fix it, roland's aren't exactly known for good tracking to begin with.

 

[JoshLoring]

Still a work in progress... I know.. I know.

Any update on this? I highly doubt they will be able to fix it, roland's aren't exactly known for good tracking to begin with.

 

[DRamm76]

A few thoughts on this...

-Is the machine completely 100% level?
-Does it happen with all materials? Specific materials?
-Are you using the proper heat settings? Media Clamps?
-When you attach the material to the take up are you attaching it in the center or the sides?

 

[player]

I don't think your Roland guys are on the ball.

 

[rjssigns]

Any updates on the XR-640's and the known issues with the tracking/take up unit? Josh did you get this mess sorted out?

I'm going to start a separate thread about this but wanted to bump this back up for now.

Apparently Roland has issued a "repair kit" for techs to install (we had ours installed a couple months ago....it's just a couple of washers) which means they've admitted these things are faulty.

I thought the issue was corrected but after trying to print a few long runs I've realized nothing has changed. Starts buckling/headstriking after anywhere from 10' - 25'.

Not impressed. I won't be buying a Roland again.

It seems as if Roland is lacking in the proper set-up of web fed devices. If your infeed and take-up are not within 0.001 tram and less than 0.002 level you will have issues, period. It is a simple compounding error.
The procedures are quite simple, but require dial indicators, tram rods, a shim assortment and lots of patience. Of course it also requires the equipment to have a design that allows this type of "tuning".

Another thing to note is parts produced on CNC mills, lathes and press brakes can have various tolerances that "stack" when assembled. If you have a range of say +-0.010" for the parts then combine parts at the high and low ends of that tolerance you are already 0.020" out. Now do that with the infeed and take-up and you are 0.040" combined and on your way to headaches.

I find it odd that no one has mentioned any attempt whatsoever to determine exactly where the error originates. It seems more of a scatter gun approach hoping something works. Incredible.

The worst part with this type of "fixing" leaves no usable data or notation on exactly what is happening.
Data collection is critical. Data gives you a solid foundation with which to work towards a solid, repeatable fix.

 

[bulldozer]

I still haven't had an issue with it. No repair kit was installed either. I have made several 50+ runs without strikes or take-up reel issues.

 

[rjssigns]

I still haven't had an issue with it. No repair kit was installed either. I have made several 50+ runs without strikes or take-up reel issues.

Then you got a good one.

It is always disappointing when I hear about issues with any brand or type of equipment. Wide format printers are a mature technology. Although with many things the first generations are built like tanks. Then engineers are tasked with seeing how cheaply successive generations can be made while still producing acceptable results. I've seen and worked in this environment on multiple occasions in my former career.

I always get an uneasy feeling as to what their present business model is.
I've been witness to a failing product line that gets dressed up with a couple bells and whistles.
All in an effort to wring every possible dime out before the company is bought out or goes into receivership.

 

[oli]

xr-640 Damage of Cut Carriage Cable

I'm disappointed to.. I have changed 4 cables and still have problems.
The flexible cable connected to the Cut Carriage gets damaged. It causes the cutter to move up and down. randomly while the carriage is in motion

 

[altereddezignz]

Any updates to a fix or a new fix to production before purchase? We look to maybe by one but not sure if we want to as the machine needs to run at night alone..