ROLAND ECO-SOLVENT vs. HP LATEX - My personal experience owning both.

[FrankW]

Their is an optimiser ink (OP cartridge) on the latex printer which acts as a clear coat which the roland does not have which I believe is the real reason behind this. But in any case, well worth it!

I'm sorry I need to correct this.

What improves scratch resistance is IN the ink, is something HP named "Anti Scratch Agent".

The Optimizer improves print quality on higher print speeds, and is the reason why banding doesn't appear anymore even if you print 20sqm an hour.

Have a look on this video:

[video=youtube;tr5i0fPrt5k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr5i0fPrt5k[/video]

If you want to have a more closer look on the technology of the HP Latex 300-Printers, spent 15 Minutes of your time on that:

[video=youtube;60kUgPLbc64]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60kUgPLbc64[/video]

 

[Decomurale]

I'm afraid here is some misunderstanding.
'Latex 90% is plastic' how it comes? Left and right cover, platen and some part in stand is plastic. Top and rear cover are stainless steel, made too perfect so ppl don't realize. Inside the printer aluminum alloy and steel frame, motors well built, german made 3 times bigger size than Roland's, in other word good combination of metal and plastic. Otherwise this monster machine weigh as much as half ton.

'Ink price is almost same' nope. It seems, but in Roland everytime emptying the half liter waste ink tank, you throw 150 bucks for nothing. In latex almost every single drop of ink used for its main purpose 'the printing'.

'loadind' it depends. When someone familiar with DJZ6x00 series or Canon iPF 9x00 series, it is the same. In Roland, loading from behind, but the handle is located in another side at the left end of platen. After some time you may feel front loading is better.

The parts that get the most manual use on a daily basis that are part of the core functions of the machine are plastic unlike the Roland. The take up roller arms - plastic. The load media lever arm - plastic. The load take up roller lever arm - plastic. All the levers are plastic. Also the type of metal, or gauge of metal on the HP is far inferior to the quality of the Roland XR. They may weigh relatively the same.. but laying your hands on both reveals a world of difference. Just my personal experience. Cheers!

 

[Decomurale]

I'm sorry I need to correct this.

What improves scratch resistance is IN the ink, is something HP named "Anti Scratch Agent".

The Optimizer improves print quality on higher print speeds, and is the reason why banding doesn't appear anymore even if you print 20sqm an hour.

Have a look on this video:

[video=youtube;tr5i0fPrt5k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr5i0fPrt5k[/video]

If you want to have a more closer look on the technology of the HP Latex 300-Printers, spent 15 Minutes of your time on that:

[video=youtube;60kUgPLbc64]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60kUgPLbc64[/video]

Thanks for clearing this up. We were wrongfully informed during training I guess. In any case, great ink!

 

[dypinc]

Such an unbiased article.

Your thoughts largely echo my experiences. I've had XC540s since release and an L260 for the past 4 years. Having both gives us great versatility, but the HP would print about 10 times the square meterage of the Roland each week. I only buy media with quality liners so generally start printing right from the leading edge.

I had planned on purchasing an L360 this year but the colour profiling & consistency issues have put me off.

I could always start SAV on at the leading edge with the L25500 too. But the heating is different on the L3xx series. The problem is that the curing is done in one spot soon after the media leaves the platen where it tends to stay up a little and get into that curing area and get hot and catch on the top before it can drop.

As for the color profiling and consistencies, after the mess with the last two firmwares I do not trust the onboard calibration or profiling. Onboard calibration could not be brought back to linear on any media after the last firmware. You have to create all new media. And, I believe HP made a huge mistake by putting only one lc/mc head in the L3xx series which is where I am seeing the inconsistencies from. You're just going to have to replace that head a lot because you can not afford any nozzle drop outs and maintain grays with any consistency. Just simply not enough redundancy with only one head.

 

[rjssigns]

From what I understand you need a 42"(1067mm) piece to be able to sheet feed any of the 300 series latex. Seems HP expects you to load full rolls and run them out.
Deal breaker for me right there. I'm used to feeding my Roland yield from other projects that don't use the full width of material.

Every shop is different and a latex would waste too much material in my shop.

 

[neil_se]

You won't have more issues with color consistency on the new than on the old machine. In opposite, it is improved with the Latex 360. Color Consistency is a typical Issue with thermal inkjets.

What is your problem with colour profiling? It is an ADDITIONAL Feature, you could do colour profiling nearly the same way you have done it until now.

Interesting Frank, I guess I need to look into it further. I do all my own XC540, L260 and FB500 profiles with Caldera Easy Media and I don't want to lose the control that I currently have.

 

[dypinc]

I do all my own XC540, L260 and FB500 profiles with Caldera Easy Media and I don't want to lose the control that I currently have.

From my experience that is the best approach with the L360.

 

[FrankW]

Interesting Frank, I guess I need to look into it further. I do all my own XC540, L260 and FB500 profiles with Caldera Easy Media and I don't want to lose the control that I currently have.

One thing is different between the XC540/L260/FB500 on one hand and the Latex 360 on the other: because the 360 is a Contone Printer, everything except the ICC-Profile (Dithering, Ink Limiting, linearisation) is processed in the printer. Only the ICC-Profile-Creation makes sense to be done in the RIP-Software.

 

[dypinc]

One thing is different between the XC540/L260/FB500 on one hand and the Latex 360 on the other: because the 360 is a Contone Printer, everything except the ICC-Profile (Dithering, Ink Limiting, linearisation) is processed in the printer. Only the ICC-Profile-Creation makes sense to be done in the RIP-Software.

After what HP did with latest firmware my option is it makes more sense to do everything on the RIP. Only create new media and do not calibrate it on the printer. Leave it at recommended. I have been forced to redo all media because of what HP did and so far everything is working excellent doing it all from the RIP. At least this way I hope that what every HP changes in firmware in the future can easily corrected by re-linearization with the RIP instead of having to erase all media setting and start from scratch again.

 

[jfiscus]

It is good to see honest reviews/comparisons out there!
We have alsways ran Mimaki printers here and a couple months ago we added an HP Latex 360. it has its advantages and disadvantages.
We just sold one of the Mimaki printers and are adding an Epson solvent printer tomorrow, so it's going to be a bit hectic!

 

[Tim Aucoin]

GREAT THREAD! And a great side-by-side comparison. I absolutely LOVE my Latex 360. Customers are always amazed at the quality it prints. With the new ink technology and the new drying process, I am able to print on many more medias than I could with the old L25500. They have come a long way in Latex technology for sure. I still run a little Roland EcoSolvent (BN20) for stuff that requires it, and yes, it does an excellent job also!

 

[juf1an]

I have a roland rs 640 and latex 260,
The print cost on hp its more expensive, the ink x6 tonner 600us, printhead 600us, i have use the hp two years ago (6 print heads, 4 cyan 1 magenta and 1 yellow). It prints the 10% of all my production.
The print cost on my roland its cheaper, the ink 50us (sts ink) x 4 colors , print head 1500us (only change one), i have use the roland 4 years ago and it prints the 40% of all my production

The 50% off al my production its printing on my konica 520 of 3,2mt really good machine but solvent.


my machine room

 

[Decomurale]

Color consistancy is a major issue with our new latex 360.

UPDATE: After printing with 4 litres of ink I have to say that I had serious color issues starting at about 2 litres used. My last 2 litres have been a nightmare! The thermal heads seem to be less precise after only half their recommended life span. So as it stands right now I am looking at 6 sets of heads per year instead of 3. Very frustrated. I have been reading all kinds of threads about color issues with the latex 360. I also must say that this is something I never experienced with my roland printers nor did I expect to have to deal with a new latex 360. It is still an ongoing issue for us and we have had to repeat many jobs due to panels not matching in color. All our mural jobs are multiple panel jobs. every long run has inconsistencies. I have read about power spikes in the 220 volt line, bad inks, bad firmware, bad heads etc. Bad, Bad, Bad!!! This is unacceptable in my book. We run a high end wall mural company and these issues are killing us. I am actively looking for another solution. Will keep you posted..

 

[Vinyldog]

You can print small pieces on the HP by taping them together an rolling it up on a core. I'm not saying its worth doing, but you can.

 

[ams]

I have a roland rs 640 and latex 260,
The print cost on hp its more expensive, the ink x6 tonner 600us, printhead 600us, i have use the hp two years ago (6 print heads, 4 cyan 1 magenta and 1 yellow). It prints the 10% of all my production.
The print cost on my roland its cheaper, the ink 50us (sts ink) x 4 colors , print head 1500us (only change one), i have use the roland 4 years ago and it prints the 40% of all my production

The 50% off al my production its printing on my konica 520 of 3,2mt really good machine but solvent.


my machine room

That is quite a printer room.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

I have a roland rs 640 and latex 260,
The print cost on hp its more expensive, the ink x6 tonner 600us, printhead 600us, i have use the hp two years ago (6 print heads, 4 cyan 1 magenta and 1 yellow). It prints the 10% of all my production.
The print cost on my roland its cheaper, the ink 50us (sts ink) x 4 colors , print head 1500us (only change one), i have use the roland 4 years ago and it prints the 40% of all my production

The 50% off al my production its printing on my konica 520 of 3,2mt really good machine but solvent.


my machine room

That's a very apples to oranges comparison. You are saying the Roland is cheaper by quoting 3rd party ink and parts to OEM HP. Why not compare STS to STS which is the same price for latex or solvent?

 

[Decomurale]

UPDATE 2: Our latex 360 is gone! It has been our greatest nightmare. We had a case open for 12 months with HP and they finally changed our L360 out for a L560 at no extra cost. Although this did not correct the problems we were having with panels mismatching in color and length. After almost 2 years of using HP Latex and having been through every possible avenue to fix my issues with hp technicians and engineers it basically comes down to this:

1. The excessive heat is the cause for media panel length and width variation. Having ink layed down on media to then instantly dry with so much heat will inconsistently shrink the media. Nothing can be done to fix this, unless your rip (we use caldera) has vertical and horizontal compensation which is never 100% accurate anyways, there is a way to almost correct this problem.

2. The inconsistency in color causing panels to mismatch is caused by the fact that the print heads are consumable and there ability to be constant is degraded as they get utilized at different rates during printing. Especially in the fact that the LC and LM print heads work much harder than the rest and degrade much more rapidly. Our only (somewhat) of a fix for this was to bypass the LC-LM and build CMYK profiles and print equally sized panels (in width) with color bars at the far left and right of our prints and flip each panel vertically to stabilize the color problems. This worked out ok, but not perfect. The greater benefit was that we were saving almost 40% on ink consumption using CMYK profiles.

So we now have a brand new L560 which we are looking to sell. Although all this time HP advertised and sold their Latex printers as the perfect ''wallart'' printers, the truth is that latex technology is simply not suited for anyone doing wall mural and wallpaper work. We were sold by the whole WALL-ART marketing HP threw at us alongside the dealers who also believed the same back then and today will never sell this technology to anyone in our line of work again. We are now looking to buy the the Canon OCE 1640 and
we wil be going to SGIA 2017 to see what other options might be available. But we have decided that we are going to go towards UV technology and staying far away from latex printers for the future.

Hope this helps anyone looking to get into Latex printing. In my experience if you run a vehicle graphic shop or sticker shop, or are just doing one offs, then Latex is ok. But unfortunately, as soon as panel work is required, this technology simply does not work. Thanks for reading.

 

[Behrmon]

We also run a couple of Roland's and 2 570s, while I love the speed and quality of the 570s we have also run into more panel alignment issues than we did off just the Roland's. To the OP, what was your standard go to wrap film and what temp would you cure at? For us it's LX480 curing at 215. We flip every other tile thru Onxy and often get 4 out of 5 pretty tight then one way off

 

[BALLPARK]

I was getting ready to buy a latex printer for wall murals, vehicle wraps, decals, and banners. Now after reading about the L360 and L560 series here having the same issues for wall murals it confirms my concerns from the past couple of years.

I just have a couple questions for latex owners if they don't mind to answer.

Does the color panel issues happen on all media types on long runs?
We print our vehicle wraps using 3M cast wrap vinyls. We only use PhotoTex for our wall wraps and wall based logos. We only use JetFlex for our banner runs. I had hoped to be able to use multiple latex printers to print production runs on multiple printers for the same project.

Rotating the panels when printing long runs for wraps.
Does this allow you provide a sellable product in terms of quality that your company can stand behind?

Do you print on PhotoTex series media?
If so, what are your thoughts on how the two work together?

Do you print on JetFlex series media?
If so, what are your thoughts on how the two work together?

Do you print on 3M IJ180-CV3-10, IJ180-mC, or LX480mC series media?
If so, what are your thoughts on how the two work together?

Do you own both L360-L560 series and the larger format LX3000+ series or the LX1500 series?
Does the larger format latex have the same issues with panels not matching when used in a panel layout system?
How would you rate the larger format series for banners?
How does the larger format series compare to UV printed banners in terms of scratch resistance?

Thanks for your time and input.

 

[dypinc]

Does the color panel issues happen on all media types on long runs?
We print our vehicle wraps using 3M cast wrap vinyls. We only use PhotoTex for our wall wraps and wall based logos. We only use JetFlex for our banner runs. I had hoped to be able to use multiple latex printers to print production runs on multiple printers for the same project.

PhotoTex should `not be much of an issue for tiled wall panels but vinyl would. Too much heat for vinyls to stay stable. 6mil would need to be used for sure. As for JetFlex I wouldn’t touch it with Latex. Like most of Ultraflex’s banner material the plasticizers come to surface and will cause very poor printing with latex, especially JetFlex which is the worst. As for color matching multiple latex printers it would be a real challenge. They are like digital color press in that they are not that color stable with the wearable printheads, and the lack or 2 lc/lm printhead creates another challenge with the L360-L560 series especially at lower passes.

Rotating the panels when printing long runs for wraps.
Does this allow you provide a sellable product in terms of quality that your company can stand behind?

I think you would want to do that with any printer and media. You can not always depend on the media coating being the same on each side, more so than issue with the printers.

Do you print on PhotoTex series media?
If so, what are your thoughts on how the two work together?

Yes prints great on the L360-L560 series. But I would not use the Aqueous version. Most aqueous coated media can be printed on the latex printers but you still will only have the durability of the aqueous coatings to deal with.

Do you print on JetFlex series media?
If so, what are your thoughts on how the two work together?

Ultraflex JetFlex total junk on the latex.

Do you print on 3M IJ180-CV3-10, IJ180-mC, or LX480mC series media?
If so, what are your thoughts on how the two work together?

Never had a problem with 3M IJ180-CV3 with the latex.

Do you own both L360-L560 series and the larger format LX3000+ series or the LX1500 series?
Does the larger format latex have the same issues with panels not matching when used in a panel layout system?
How would you rate the larger format series for banners?
How does the larger format series compare to UV printed banners in terms of scratch resistance?

I only have the L360. Had the L25500 before. I would sure be interested to know as well the difference between the L360-L560 series and the larger format LX3000+ series or the LX1500 series. We do know the larger series has 2 lc/lm printheads which is the biggest challenge with the consistent color on the L360-L560 especially at the lower passes.