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Question Sand carved and Graphic blast ADA signs

sfcurcio

New Member
Our shop is looking for more ways to create ADA signs for institutions where they do not want applique letters and raster Braille beads. I had come across two other techniques - sand carving and graphic blast. I am familiar with sandblasting signs, but never heard of using the method to make ADa signs with Braille. Can some enlighten me on the process?
 

GaSouthpaw

Profane and profane accessories.
I would personally be very reticent about calling them ADA signs, since the requirements are so vague and strict at the same time.
I mean, for signs that don't require tactile lettering, you could probably do a sandblasted sign, but you'd have to leave a raised area for the Braille to sit in. And since the US requirements for Braille are very specific, calling for "a domed or rounded shape" (so, despite what the manufacturers might claim, photopolymer signs don't meet those requirements), so the raster bead method is the most efficient way to do Braille. If you have a router with 3D carving capabilities and want to spend the time doing the programming to get the required results, you could try it that way, but there's no way that'd be faster than using the raster method. Oh, and it would still have to have the correct finishes and contrast.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I don't think it's really a need for new creative ways to make ADA signs, as the codes and rules are very strict and explicit as to what you can and cannot do. Being creative might make for a very nice looking sign, but I doubt someone wants to get a splinter or not know what they're reading by hand. The rules are very specific so that regardless of where a person of needs is, they know precisely what to feel for. Your idea could be somewhat confusing.... introducing new backgrounds and features to something which has been standardized for about 30 years.
 

GaSouthpaw

Profane and profane accessories.
I wasn't aware that's what those were called, so I learned something. Still, that Braille is not compliant, at least not as the ADA requirements are written (the domed line I quoted above is straight out of the reg). The letters pass because they don't have sharp edges (even though a few of the examples don't have compliant fonts).
Now, I've always heard that there aren't a lot of inspectors, so the chances of someone getting busted for having non-compliant signs is slim. I also know I wouldn't chance my reputation on it, or the resulting lawsuit from the customer that did get busted.
 

sfcurcio

New Member
I agree with Southpaw.
Is there a specific reason the customer doesn't want applique letters and raster beads?

The architect's requirement is that the Braille and letters be "an intrinsic part of the sign and cannot be removed." This is needed in locations where the signs could be vandalized. All of the bids documents we received for schools have this mentioned in the description.
 

MikePro

New Member
sandblasting to create braille? interesting, never heard of it but the pics prove it is possible to do.
+1 to learning something new everyday, I actually just saw a video of a UV printer building-up the 1/32" characters & braille & colorizing everything in one-go.

I still don't see why the rasterbraille wouldn't be acceptable, but if you're looking for options then photopolymer ADA signage would also fulfill that requirement of intrinsic-ism.
 

Andy D

Active Member
Thank you for the replies. I think maybe I should offer to show you some links of the signs I am talking about.

https://www.bestsigns.com/prod_gbmp.html

http://www.mohawksign.com/specifications/specifications.cfm


sfcurcio I wouldn't waste my time with mohawk, they are slow and
expensive. I sent you a message with info on a much better vendor
that I use everytime I can ( I have no other affiliation with them)
BTW sand-carved is pretty standard, it just means the sign is made out of
one solid piece, & doesn't have glued together pieces that can fail.
 

Robert Wilcox

New Member
Have you learned anything more on this topic? My shop too wants to start making sandblasted ada signs. They seem to be MUCH more durable than appliqué and look better than photopolymer. I’m yet to come across a video or anything on how they’re made.
 

Robert Wilcox

New Member

sfcurcio I wouldn't waste my time with mohawk, they are slow and
expensive. I sent you a message with info on a much better vendor
that I use everytime I can ( I have no other affiliation with them)
BTW sand-carved is pretty standard, it just means the sign is made out of
one solid piece, & doesn't have glued together pieces that can fail.
I too would love to hear who your better vendor is. Thank you
 

signbrad

New Member
Our shop has been making ADA-compliant signs for many, many years. Sandblasted Corian has never been rejected even though the Braille dots are not always perfectly domed. Even so, doming is easy. Simply remove the mask from the dots with a red Scotchbrite pad. The pad removes the small dots of mask and rounds the raised dots at the same time. It doesn't take much rubbing.
We have often substituted sandblasted Corian for photopolymer, though photopolymer is often requested, and have rarely been rejected. In the rare instance that an architect has insisted on photopolymer and no other method, we subbed it out. We have a photopolymer machine but quit using it years ago. It's a pain in the rear to use.
Architects sometimes don't like bead Braille because it tends to fall out of the holes if it isn't done perfectly. It is labor-intensive, too.

Yes, ADA requirements seem strict, at least on paper. But in practice I have never seen Braille dots rejected due to not being rounded. I have never even seen a lawsuit based solely on non-compliant ADA signs. In our area we have known of only one ADA lawsuit ever, a multi-million dollar one against a theater chain. A complaint caused by a non-compliant water fountain triggered a justice department inquiry that forced the chain to make modifications to plumbing and restrooms, and some sign work was included during the inspection sweep. However, the signage was not the main focus and the cost for replacement signs was born by the theater not the sign company.

It has been my experience that ADA signs are rarely 100% compliant. A case in point: I have yet to see ANY sign company comply with letter-spacing requirements. Many architects have even required specs that were non-compliant, such as insisting on letter styles with bold strokes, or requiring signs to be so small that minimum line spacing requirements could not be followed. Some architects are confused by the requirements for installation height. Others simply don't seem to care.

Inspections and policing are done by US Justice Dept employees. There are very few inspectors and they are spread very thin. They only seem to inspect when there is a major violation that involves injury. By its own admission, the Justice Dept has focused mainly on the entertainment and hospitality industries (hotels and theaters). We have produced thousands of signs for schools and hospitals where the institution or their architects specified ADA signage that was not completely compliant.

Probably 90% of our ADA signage is sand-carved Corian, Avonite or some other brand of solid surface material. The remainder is a mix of bead Braille, photopolymer and the raised lettering produced by our Direct Color Systems machine. Sandblasted Corian seems by far the most efficient method for large quantities.

Brad in Kansas City
 

Robert Wilcox

New Member
Thank you for all that information. Yea I think we want to get into sand carving because of the quality. Do you know where I can see a video of the process on how they’re made? The only videos I seem to find are sand blasting large wooden signs.
do you have experience with melamine plastic? One of our suppliers uses that to make sand carved ada signs.


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emacias

New Member

sfcurcio I wouldn't waste my time with mohawk, they are slow and
expensive. I sent you a message with info on a much better vendor
that I use everytime I can ( I have no other affiliation with them)
BTW sand-carved is pretty standard, it just means the sign is made out of
one solid piece, & doesn't have glued together pieces that can fail.
Andy D: Would share your ADA supplier with me?
 

CanuckSigns

Active Member
A word of warning if you are considering the photopolymer process, one off signs are extremely expensive, so while the initial order of 200 signs might be reasonable, when the client inevitably orders 3 signs they forgot, don't be surprised when they are 10 times the cost, we do raster braille and applique and have won a few contracts on this point alone.

Does the spec document not list any approved manufacturers?
 

brdesign

New Member
I used to work for a company that did photo-etched ADA signs. After spraying the signs with a coat of primer and a couple of coats of paint that would give the braille dots the domed effect.
 
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