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Screw you 3M.
- Thread starter HulkSmash
- Start date
- Status
mnapuran
New Member
+1... Been using it since 2008 here and it's my preferred manufacturer by far.
mopar691
New Member
I do agree. I had a minor problems printing on 3M with colors inconsistent from one roll to the next. Like has been stated it does not appear to be a true white like the Oracal.
The last few rolls of 3M I had in the shop I actually used to tape off screens on the screen printing side of my shop. I must say it did work very well for that.
The last few rolls of 3M I had in the shop I actually used to tape off screens on the screen printing side of my shop. I must say it did work very well for that.
Scott Reynolds
New Member
I used some old mmm vinyl to print some targets to take out to the desert with my AR's last weekend. Worked great.
401Graphics
New Member
same here
Cale Frederick
New Member
we actually used the 293. I check on this customer about every 4 months and always check for anything going on with the wrap and I have not noticed any shrinkage or peeling to date.
I'm about to start using it a lot more now that we are dumping the IJ35c. I always liked it but I got a better price on the 3m. Guess price is not everything now though!
Sorry for the late response... busy times at work and home.
houseofgrafix
none
has anyone from 3m wrote or said anything about this thread?
Graphics2u
New Member
I started Printing Vinyl in 2004 and have essentially only used Oracal. It's always worked very well for me. If anyone uses it I'm sure you will be pleased. 3M is a Brand known around the world, and sure they do have some very good products, but name recognition doesn't mean your products are superior to all others, in fact many times there are far superior products out there for the same or less cost.
I got turned off on 3M over 20 years ago when I worked for a Trim Line franchise (Trim Line was owned by 3m). They basically ran that into the ground because of their demands on using only their products and their sky high pricing.
I don't do much for wraps so I'm not really going to be hurt by this move on their part, but to me it's just the principle of the whole matter. They shouldn't bite the hands that feed them. And who knows what's next, will they be partnering up with Staples or Office Depot and go after the banner and sign business also????
To me it almost doesn't seem like what they are doing would be totally on the up and up with the FTC? But I'm no lawyer.
I got turned off on 3M over 20 years ago when I worked for a Trim Line franchise (Trim Line was owned by 3m). They basically ran that into the ground because of their demands on using only their products and their sky high pricing.
I don't do much for wraps so I'm not really going to be hurt by this move on their part, but to me it's just the principle of the whole matter. They shouldn't bite the hands that feed them. And who knows what's next, will they be partnering up with Staples or Office Depot and go after the banner and sign business also????
To me it almost doesn't seem like what they are doing would be totally on the up and up with the FTC? But I'm no lawyer.
CheapVehicleWrap
New Member
No. Rumor has it they're drinking about it though.
Scott Reynolds
New Member
I will set my alarm. Thanks Adam.
JoshLoring
New Member
ProColorGraphics
New Member
That is hilarious! Have people have that hanging at their shops for when the 3M rep comes in. It'd be funny to see what they say.
HulkSmash
New Member
I hear some people talking about, "oh we don't do wraps, we just letter vehicles.. and maybe throw some graphics on.."
3M Original Wraps does that too. They'll do anything.. from a simple 1 line phone number to a full wrap.
For those of you who say, "This isn't messing with my market... it's not affecting my business.... how do you know? You wouldn't because that customer 3M stole would never know about your business, because they wouldn't have the option.
Here's a simple... non attacking... just informative write up. Thanks for reading.
--------------------------------
Would you buy your vinyl from the graphics shop down the street you bid against constantly?
With its purchase of Original Wraps in April 2011, 3M began pursuing a course of action that positions the company as a direct competitor of sign shops like yours.
Currently Original Wraps offers personalization of vehicles as well as commercial wraps and graphics. Before its purchase by 3M, Original Wraps had secured contracts with most of the major automotive manufacturers to provide an incentive program for vehicle graphics on fleets leased through their dealerships. 3M made its intentions for the Original Wraps program less than clear. Sign shop owners, all 3M customers, have been told at various times that the program was dead, that the program would ONLY be targeting personalization and not commercial graphics, or that the reason the company purchased Original Wraps was to actually shut the program down.
It has become evident that none of these statements are true. 3M is actually moving forward with the Original Wraps program. The Original Wraps website, www.originalwraps.com, references both personalization and commercial products. 3M’s Original Wraps employees are present at many dealerships soliciting business. Customers at some sign shops have disclosed the offers on vehicle graphics they have received through the Original Wraps program. Shops have lost bids on fleets because they were undercut by Original Wraps pricing levels that only 3M, as a manufacturer of vehicle graphics products, can provide.
3M claims that the Original Wraps program does not make 3M a direct competitor because the company uses other graphics companies to produce and install the vehicle graphics. This position falls apart when 3M’s control over the process is considered:
- 3M are the ones actually selling the vehicle graphics.
- 3M are the ones taking the Profits
- 3M are the ones leaving the graphic producers and installers with below industry standard rates for their services. (3M sets the install prices companies can charge)
- 3M will not issue a warranty on vehicle graphics offered through the Original Wraps program unless installation is performed by a 3M endorsed installer
- Requirements for becoming a 3M endorsed installer are unclear
Even if a shop decides to pursue 3M endorsement, participation in the Original Wraps program only leads to an increased dependence on 3M. Anyone who has experience with the special pricing programs 3M currently offers will understand how this is possible. In order to qualify for the special pricing programs, the customer must provide 3M with specific job details—end user information, job scope, and the like. Once 3M is armed with this information, and given its lower cost of materials, what is to stop 3M from soliciting the customer directly? The crucial issue is not whether 3M is doing printing or installing work; the issue that makes Original Wraps harmful to sign shops is that 3M is actually selling Graphics. A customer who purchases through Original Wraps never knows or meets the printer or installer; the customer’s only relationship is with 3M. The company actually doing the work has no opportunity to build a relationship with that client or to establish the groundwork for future jobs. Instead, that printer or installer will become both bound to 3M’s pricing structure and dependent on 3M for work.
3M states that the Original Wraps program will grow the wraps and vehicle graphic market through increased visibility and advertising alongside the dealerships &OEMs. From 3M’s perspective, this is true. Original Wraps will increase the amount of graphics produced and installed on 3M material and sold by 3M, all the while taking jobs and power away from existing wraps providers, and sign shops.
3M’s people will attempt to say Original Wraps is good for us. They will attempt to say that they will be using local graphics manufacturers to produce graphics. The fact is that they will use only a few producers who can meet their nebulous requirements. They will attempt to say that they will be using thousands of local installers to install the graphics. The truth is they will use a handful of installers around the country, and they will dictate the below industry standard install rates. The second you are no longer useful to them, they will move on to another installer.
The fact that automotive manufacturers and dealerships are interested in offering graphics represents a great opportunity for the wraps industry. There could have been potential benefits shared by all players in the vehicle graphic industry, from suppliers to distributors to shops. The way 3M has pursued the Original Wraps program and misled its customers about its intentions proves that 3M is only concerned that it benefits from the opportunity. While there is nothing illegal about what 3M is doing, we believe it is unethical and just plain bad business to compete against your customers.
3M is looking at the Original Wraps program as a numbers thing. The company believes it can and will sell more vinyl through the Original Wraps program dealing directly with the OEMs. We believe that we have the power to prove 3M wrong. We will not finance our competition.
A lot of jobs are spec’d on 3M. The truth is that in most cases, the customer doesn’t care who manufactures the film, as long as it is quality material. It is our job to show the customer that the alternative film we are offering is as good as, if not better than, 3M product. We should also be working with our distributors to ensure they are stocking quality alternatives to 3M products. The Original Wraps program is not only hurting shops. By limiting the shops eligible to complete Original Vehicle graphic jobs, 3M is also cutting distribution out of the loop. Please express this concern to your distributors. Standing together with our distributors will only increase our power as independent shops united to voice our opinions with our words, actions, and dollars.
Customer action like this has made an impact in the vehicle graphic business before. Avery is still reeling from the effects of widespread negative sentiment towards its brand due to the company’s poor handling of warranty issues years ago—Avery wrap products still suffer from a reputation for poor quality. 3M has demonstrated disregard for its customers and distributors in favor of pursuing the company’s own short-term gain through the Original Wraps program. The company has positioned itself at odds and in direct competition with its customers and has forfeited any loyalty that 3M customers have shown to this point.
3M Original Wraps does that too. They'll do anything.. from a simple 1 line phone number to a full wrap.
For those of you who say, "This isn't messing with my market... it's not affecting my business.... how do you know? You wouldn't because that customer 3M stole would never know about your business, because they wouldn't have the option.
Here's a simple... non attacking... just informative write up. Thanks for reading.
--------------------------------
Would you buy your vinyl from the graphics shop down the street you bid against constantly?
With its purchase of Original Wraps in April 2011, 3M began pursuing a course of action that positions the company as a direct competitor of sign shops like yours.
Currently Original Wraps offers personalization of vehicles as well as commercial wraps and graphics. Before its purchase by 3M, Original Wraps had secured contracts with most of the major automotive manufacturers to provide an incentive program for vehicle graphics on fleets leased through their dealerships. 3M made its intentions for the Original Wraps program less than clear. Sign shop owners, all 3M customers, have been told at various times that the program was dead, that the program would ONLY be targeting personalization and not commercial graphics, or that the reason the company purchased Original Wraps was to actually shut the program down.
It has become evident that none of these statements are true. 3M is actually moving forward with the Original Wraps program. The Original Wraps website, www.originalwraps.com, references both personalization and commercial products. 3M’s Original Wraps employees are present at many dealerships soliciting business. Customers at some sign shops have disclosed the offers on vehicle graphics they have received through the Original Wraps program. Shops have lost bids on fleets because they were undercut by Original Wraps pricing levels that only 3M, as a manufacturer of vehicle graphics products, can provide.
3M claims that the Original Wraps program does not make 3M a direct competitor because the company uses other graphics companies to produce and install the vehicle graphics. This position falls apart when 3M’s control over the process is considered:
- 3M are the ones actually selling the vehicle graphics.
- 3M are the ones taking the Profits
- 3M are the ones leaving the graphic producers and installers with below industry standard rates for their services. (3M sets the install prices companies can charge)
- 3M will not issue a warranty on vehicle graphics offered through the Original Wraps program unless installation is performed by a 3M endorsed installer
- Requirements for becoming a 3M endorsed installer are unclear
Even if a shop decides to pursue 3M endorsement, participation in the Original Wraps program only leads to an increased dependence on 3M. Anyone who has experience with the special pricing programs 3M currently offers will understand how this is possible. In order to qualify for the special pricing programs, the customer must provide 3M with specific job details—end user information, job scope, and the like. Once 3M is armed with this information, and given its lower cost of materials, what is to stop 3M from soliciting the customer directly? The crucial issue is not whether 3M is doing printing or installing work; the issue that makes Original Wraps harmful to sign shops is that 3M is actually selling Graphics. A customer who purchases through Original Wraps never knows or meets the printer or installer; the customer’s only relationship is with 3M. The company actually doing the work has no opportunity to build a relationship with that client or to establish the groundwork for future jobs. Instead, that printer or installer will become both bound to 3M’s pricing structure and dependent on 3M for work.
3M states that the Original Wraps program will grow the wraps and vehicle graphic market through increased visibility and advertising alongside the dealerships &OEMs. From 3M’s perspective, this is true. Original Wraps will increase the amount of graphics produced and installed on 3M material and sold by 3M, all the while taking jobs and power away from existing wraps providers, and sign shops.
3M’s people will attempt to say Original Wraps is good for us. They will attempt to say that they will be using local graphics manufacturers to produce graphics. The fact is that they will use only a few producers who can meet their nebulous requirements. They will attempt to say that they will be using thousands of local installers to install the graphics. The truth is they will use a handful of installers around the country, and they will dictate the below industry standard install rates. The second you are no longer useful to them, they will move on to another installer.
The fact that automotive manufacturers and dealerships are interested in offering graphics represents a great opportunity for the wraps industry. There could have been potential benefits shared by all players in the vehicle graphic industry, from suppliers to distributors to shops. The way 3M has pursued the Original Wraps program and misled its customers about its intentions proves that 3M is only concerned that it benefits from the opportunity. While there is nothing illegal about what 3M is doing, we believe it is unethical and just plain bad business to compete against your customers.
3M is looking at the Original Wraps program as a numbers thing. The company believes it can and will sell more vinyl through the Original Wraps program dealing directly with the OEMs. We believe that we have the power to prove 3M wrong. We will not finance our competition.
A lot of jobs are spec’d on 3M. The truth is that in most cases, the customer doesn’t care who manufactures the film, as long as it is quality material. It is our job to show the customer that the alternative film we are offering is as good as, if not better than, 3M product. We should also be working with our distributors to ensure they are stocking quality alternatives to 3M products. The Original Wraps program is not only hurting shops. By limiting the shops eligible to complete Original Vehicle graphic jobs, 3M is also cutting distribution out of the loop. Please express this concern to your distributors. Standing together with our distributors will only increase our power as independent shops united to voice our opinions with our words, actions, and dollars.
Customer action like this has made an impact in the vehicle graphic business before. Avery is still reeling from the effects of widespread negative sentiment towards its brand due to the company’s poor handling of warranty issues years ago—Avery wrap products still suffer from a reputation for poor quality. 3M has demonstrated disregard for its customers and distributors in favor of pursuing the company’s own short-term gain through the Original Wraps program. The company has positioned itself at odds and in direct competition with its customers and has forfeited any loyalty that 3M customers have shown to this point.
HulkSmash
New Member
I'm hoping 3M actually responds with something now.
ddarlak
Go Bills!
I understand the theory that 3M is double dipping and using there massive corporate power to do so.
I agree with smaller shops boycotting their products because of this.
But, the sentiment that they are stealing your customers has to stop. They have a business model that tries to use their massive resources to capture the market - This is by no means stealing...
I agree with smaller shops boycotting their products because of this.
But, the sentiment that they are stealing your customers has to stop. They have a business model that tries to use their massive resources to capture the market - This is by no means stealing...
CheapVehicleWrap
New Member
Yeah!
Charlie J
New Member
It may not be stealing by definition. But they can't expect to have their cake and eat it too. No shop is going buy products from a company once they know that they are directly competing with them.
tsgstl
New Member
call it what you wish, its just bad business
my best customer is a screen printing label maker. He gets most of his business from the web, I could easily do this and undersell him. But I wont and that is why he is loyal.
It is the same reason I stay away from Avery since they put DIY sign kits in every office supply store across the country. I just switched to 3m from Oracal on my wraps and am very happy. But this thread make me think of changing again.
my best customer is a screen printing label maker. He gets most of his business from the web, I could easily do this and undersell him. But I wont and that is why he is loyal.
It is the same reason I stay away from Avery since they put DIY sign kits in every office supply store across the country. I just switched to 3m from Oracal on my wraps and am very happy. But this thread make me think of changing again.
ucmj22
New Member
I believe the sentiment is valid. When they are selling you product through a distributor to sell at the retail level, and also selling directly to the consumer that you are trying to sell their product to, its pretty shady. why should I purchase a product from a manufacturer that competes for my clients at the retail level with the benefit of removing 2 levels of distribution.
I understand that "stealing" implies illegality and what they are doing is just unethical, but at this point it is just semantics. Call it what ever you want but its bad business, and if someone wants to buy from a company that is trying to cut them out of the equation, they are free to do so, but thats just bad business on their part as well.
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