Seeking suggestions on print shop renovations

[tititata]

My boss acquired a used flatbed printer, large format printer, router/plotter and some other general support equipment from a close-up. I am tasked to put them altogether and try starting a new business from it. We only have a rather small rectangular area of about 1200 sq ft. I am soliciting some comments and feedback from fellow forumers here on how best I should renovate the working place to make the environment both functional and pleasant:

1) Should I install a false ceiling? What is the ideal height? My current concrete ceiling is up to 12 feet high.

2) Should I install air-conditioning or just use ceiling fans or a combination of both? Aircon might make the air unhealthy due to the solvent etc but fans might cause the equipment to function less than optimal. The outside ambient temperature at my location is a hot 30 deg C with humidity as high as 90%.

3) Is it advisable to install a ventilator to suck away the “poisonous” fume” esp. from the large format printer which uses solvent inks?

4) Should I place the router in a separate enclosed room as this process might be too dusty? I'm afraid it might contaminate the other print processes if I don’t segregate them. But doing so might hinder movements from one process to another since the total work area is small. Maybe a dust collector is required for this process?

5) Is there any special lighting specifications I should follow so as to visually inspect the print quality better? Or, is brighter the better without being too glaring?

6) What about colors on walls and flooring? I plan to whitewash all walls to give a brighter look and lay homogeneous floor tiles for cleanliness and ease of maintenance. As for the flooring, I like to show off the creative part by opting for black and white colors, arranged like a checker board. Problem is, I do not know how dirty such printing operations can be on a daily basis so the while tiles might get stained easily from the ink droplets etc.

7) What about the storage racks? Should I purchase those cantilever type or heavy duty horizontal racks for a range of media and materials?


Any feedback is much appreciated.

 

[andy]

1200 sq ft...... you haven't got a hope in hell.

Once you've crammed all that junk in your shop you won't be able to swing a cat.... unless your boss can pony up for a proper sized building he's wasted a boat load of money on machinery he can't use.

 

[Malkin]

Lots of good ideas you have there, but your space is a problem.

You also need room for material storage, move projects around and work on them, financial records, etc.

We have a 54" printer, laminator & 2 plotters in a 2600 sq.ft. space

 

[tititata]

It's true the space is puny and that's my biggest concern hence the makeover with the hope of optimizing it. The current run-down space is an individual commercial unit within the city area and can't be expanded

Didn't Bill Gates started from his garage, never mind his only asset was probably just a computer then? So we'll start small...baby steps.

I am keen to know if you guys operate within a fully air-con area or just an open space with lots of natural ventilation.

 

[Marco]

The item most important to me is the router. I definitely enclose that router, be it 2x and drywall or see-thru flexible plastic; and install a ventilator. Keep ceiling height at max, in area other than office space area. Do we have any closet designers here? :Big Laugh Open closet design with ladder. For AC, call your local friend, business owner, HVAC guy and ask for suggestions; sell him a sign. Least of all, consider a fresh coat of trendy color paint and installing 1 emc by the entrance.

 

[WhiskeyDreamer]

I am keen to know if you guys operate within a fully air-con area or just an open space with lots of natural ventilation.

both....front half of our building is A/C and heated...we have an edge, envision plotter and a 24in plotter as well as an embroidery machine, heat press, dtg, and 4x8 work table....we also have our pcs here, a 12x12 office and our showroom for apparel, plus storage for regularly used vinyls....

back half of the shop is half and half...half has an air conditioning and heating unit, that's where we have the six color manual press, dryer, exposing unit, screen storage, another 4x8 work table as well as a 4x24 vertical board for banners and storage for more rarely used vinyl....then there's the open bay which only has heat, no a/c...we have a full bay for vehicle, work bench (for tools), table saw, panel saw, and sink area for washing out screens....

depending on your machines (none of which i'm familiar with), you may have certain requirements in order to achieve best results....i know our dtg is sensitive to heat, humidity, dust etc etc....

 

[DarbySign]

Hi,
Yeah, space is going to be an issue, but to address your specific questions;

1) I think 12 feet is good enough. The only time I've heard sign guys complain about ceiling height is when they need to wrap vehicles.

2) Yes to AC and fans, your machinery is going to put out its own heat and make things worse. The manuals will tell you the ideal temperature range for operation, but at the very least you need to keep your computers cool or your will have problems. Also, I don't think you want your vinyl to be sitting around in temperatures about 80F. If it feels humid in the room to you, definitely get a dehumidifier.

3) If you are using solvent inks, yes to ventilation. Bring in an expert on that one. You and everyone in the building will have a splitting headache when you are laying down heavy ink coverage. You'll build up a tolerance and stop noticing the smell, but that doesn't mean it's not unhealthy.

4) Keep the router somewhere else entirely. Any dirt, dust or particles that it generates are going to wind up stuck between your prints and the laminate. Any loss of efficiency caused by having the router in another room will be much less than the effort involved in keeping the particles off your printing.

5) Do a search here on lighting to get the specifics for what you want, or bring in an expert. Ordinary fluorescent bulbs are going to cause you no end of trouble regardless of how bright they are. You'll print one color inside and it will look different once you bring it inside.

6) You shouldn't have to worry about individual drops of ink getting on the floor. If there's an accident or a leak then it's going to be a whole lot of ink on the floor. Whitewash the walls, if you are creative at all, pretty soon you'll have the whole room decorated with your printing.

7) Stand your vinyl rolls on end. You may want horizontal racks sometime down the road, but get a rolling rack that will allow you to stand them on end, or even build one yourself.

Don't underestimate the table space you'll need as well an open areas for moving around large sheets of materials. As for swinging cats around, I wouldn't recommend that. The fur gets everywhere, and they'll pee on your vinyl when you aren't looking.

 

[Letterbox Mike]

1200 s.f. is tiny but workable if you arrange things creatively. You didn't mention if you intend to have work tables in there for finishing so I'll assume not.

Definitely enclose the router and install a good dust collection system in that room.

Climate control the entire space, printers are finicky about temperature and humidity.

An air scrubber will be a necessity in a space this small with that much equipment running, invest in a decent one.

Keep the ceilings full height, it's nice not to have to worry about low ceilings, especially when you're moving large boards around.

I'm partial to color-corrected or at least "daylight" bulbs, it gives you a little better idea how prints will look outdoors. Make sure you get plenty of lighting in there, not to the point of being a tanning salon, but enough that you can easily see what you're working on.

Wall color sort of goes hand in hand with the lighting. I'd stick with white on the walls to minimize polluting your clean bright light with background colors around you. It makes for a nice clean work area. Maybe do a big print or mural on one wall as an accent to give it some character.

For sheet storage, you need to maximize floor space. I'd recommend a rack that can hold sheets up on end, that will free up some space. With 12' ceilings, use those tall walls to your advantage. Go high with shelves, put stuff you don't use often way up high.

 

[Techman]

It's true the space is puny and that's my biggest concern hence the makeover with the hope of optimizing it

Here we go again.

Experienced people have made comments for you. They made excellent points and right away their opinions are dismissed. Bill Gates did not run a machine that creates toxic dust for a living. Screw the baby step analogy. It appears you have absolutely no idea how this stuff will work together.

1200 ft will not work with all that going on. No matter how sugar coated the advice you get it will not work. You cannot run a router with any other sign equipment in the same building with just a wall separating it all. Forget about it. I know for a fact it will not work. I already tried it.

You will spend a boat load of money making that space work. Air filtering, Dust collection, noise abatement and clean areas. There will be no room to operate a laminator either. But then you seem determined. So go ahead then find out every thing is a waste of time.

All that with the dust from the router is not to be underestimated. The static will drive you crazy. Vinyl with sticky will collect that dust as if it were made to be there.

With your possible setup....
Ceiling fans are lame. Router in same building merely separated by a wall is lame. Operating a printer without air exchange is lame. Operating a router without using the proper dust collection knowing that the dust is not only dangerous by will hurt your health is lame. Laminating in the same area as a router is lame.

The noise generated by the dust collector will piss of the neighbors if it as noisy as most. The noise from the vac hold downs will add to the mix. You will need ear covers to protect your hearing for sure. Then while breathing dust, and covering your ears your printer will be gassing you too. By the way. That dust is very flammable if you cut wood or other flammable products and does explode under the right conditions.

 

[DarbySign]

True, but does Tititata have the option to go to the boss and tell him that he just wasted a huge pile of money and that it's impossible to work in the space that's been allotted? Can Tititata show the boss this thread and expect it to convince him to let Tititata out of this assignment?
Or does Tititata have to make the most of a bad situation and try to arrange something workable?

 

[Gino]

True, but does Tititata have the option to go to the boss and tell him that he just wasted a huge pile of money and that it's impossible to work in the space that's been allotted? Can Tititata show the boss this thread and expect it to convince him to let Tititata out of this assignment?
Or does Tititata have to make the most of a bad situation and try to arrange something workable?

Titit….. doesn’t have to prove a thing to his boss about his boss’s incompetence of making a bad decision and trying to make lemonade out of shaving cream.

This smells and has the bearings of a total disaster.

Almost any flatbed needs 8’ to 10’ in front of the table with 8’ to 10’ out the other end….. including the gantry itself on most models. If it’s a true flatbed, he only needs a 5’ x 10 space with at least an extra 2’ around the entire table to move. So your least space needed for the flatbed is…. 125 sq. ft. or worse case possibility…. 350 sq ft.

The router is going to be the same…. about 350 sq. ft.

Large format printer close to 100 sq. ft.

Now put a desk or two in there, a work table, shelves for vinyl and laminate and just general maneuverability and I think you’re gonna be maxed out long before you put ventilation systems and walls in there.

The other point is… you might get it to work, tripping over everything and you might get used to that, but like Tech said…. you’re going to contaminate your printers big time over a short period of time because you’re not going to be able to keep the room clean enough.

What you're trying to do is more like fitting a truck tire on a motorcycle. You can probalby force it, but it won't work well.
​

 

[andy]

True, but does Tititata have the option to go to the boss and tell him that he just wasted a huge pile of money and that it's impossible to work in the space that's been allotted? Can Tititata show the boss this thread and expect it to convince him to let Tititata out of this assignment?
Or does Tititata have to make the most of a bad situation and try to arrange something workable?

How can you stretch a building? The problem here is not wall colour, lighting or ventilation.... it's a basic physics problem..... a pint will not fit into a half pint glass no matter what.

Gino and Tech have alluded to the problem.... even if you could get all that cr@p squashed in the space available there is little chance of ever being able to produce commercial quality work.

 

[CES020]

How high are the ceilings? Any chance of building a loft area? If so, you could put the router and flatbed on the ground floor, the plotter, large format printer, and all the small stuff on the upper level.

I don't own any printers, but if I did, I certainly would never have the router and ANY printer sharing the same workspace. If I look at my router wrong, it releases dust into the air Even with a dust collection system, it still generates enough dust that I'd think would be devastating to a printer. I could be completely wrong on that, but when I think of a clean room type environment for printing and laminating, I don't often think "I wonder if a router would be good located right next to that".

 

[Sideshow]

CES020 is getting close to a workable solution without slamming the guy for asking for advice...

With a 12' overhead, its possible to set up a room of 1200sq feet to run a majority of the items, building a loft area to store materials.

One COULD build a separate room with 7 foot clearance to house router, using the 5 foot space above the lil room to store materials etc.


Sorry but I work in a 30x30 room ( thats 900sq ft ) with 9' clearance that houses 2 computers on separate desks in separate corners, a 54" with laminator, 2x 36" cutters, a 6x6 room in corner with a blaster for glass etching and metal etching, 2x 3x8' tables along walls for trimming weeding etc, and 2x 3' x 10' tables to tape, trim, weed, etc large prints in center. PLUS still have room for another 54".

It is possible to work WELL with what you have. Just because others are used to areas of larger space, and are comfortable working in them, does not mean its impossible to work with less space.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

i have had to set up some shops in extremely limited areas one shop was only 14' X30' and they made it work for a few years until they could afford something biggger, you are trying to squeeze a lot of equipment into this space. the way i would go about this is to make a model of your space either on the computer or with a piece of paper and then create representations to scale of your pieces of equipment.

now if you lack experience with operating these various pieces of equipment you need someone to sit down with you who knows this stuff to help you. you need to consider loading materials onto the router and how much room that is going to require for example.

i have to respectfully disagree about running the router in the same building, i have set up many shops with the router in the same building in an enclosed room, in fact the majority of the shops that i have helped set up or sold equipment to and even the ones i have consulted with on other aspects i can only think of two shops that have had their routers in a separate building..maybe i am misunderstanding that comment. we are not talking stringing tarps from the floor to the ceiling (i have seen people try that and if failed miserably). you are going to want a LARGE door into that room, i would even suggest double doors and ideally i would like doors on both ends of that room if space is limited.

i would also suggest that you really think about what you are going to do in this shop. do you need all of this equipment for your startup? if not limit it to what you need.

dont let the size of the equipment dictate it's placement which is the most common mistake i see ppl make who dont have experience and/or dealing with limited space. think about the flow of work, moving your job from one piece of equip to the next.

a couple things that have been done in very limited space work environments. i've seen equipment placed on casters that can be raised and lowered so that equipment can be moved around. tables built on walls that are hinged so that htey can fold up against the wall when not needed or shop space is needed for other things.

when thinking about all of this make sure that your space has the power requirements necessary. many people over look this and dont plan for the potential expense.

for this to work well it will need to be well thought out. i would really think about what your goals are what kind of shop you want to be and dont set up equipment just because you have it but rather because you need it and are going to use it.

 

[tititata]

I am very grateful for the amount of feedback I have received thus far, even on a weekend. This is indeed a helpful and active forum - the forumers didn't just bother to write, they wrote at length too.

With this feedback and our original ideas, I hope to come out with a workable plan although it is quite a challenge. In case you guys are curious, the equipment we have are high-end MIMAKI's and they are gigantic, such as the JV-320S and JF-1631. I would like to share our renovation plans over the next few days and am open to critique. We hear well but we listen better. Thanks again.

 

[CES020]

Dan, I'm not sure if your comments about the router were in response to me, or someone else, so I thought I'd clarify myself in case it was in response to my comments about the router and printer sharing the same workspace.

I didn't mean in another building, I meant in the same open area. I have a vision of printers and laminators being 10' from the router, which I couldn't see causing anything but quality problems on the printed products.

You can certainly have them in the same dwelling, just not in the same room, would be my thoughts.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

agreed i would NEVER put a router in an area with a printer...i have seen it done and all i can say is that it is a nightmare.

there were just comments that i read before posting to the effect that a router needs to be in a separate building. yes that would eliminate the noise, dust problems. but so will a well insulated dedicated room of any quality.

if the op begins to consider a mezanine level take into consideration the materials you will be moving and how you are going to do that. not saying it can not be done by any means but i know ppl that have put printing operations up on a loft and then they are lugging rolls of materials up stairs, obviously hot air rises and most of the shops i have been in with a setup like that it is just miserable...with enough money you can fix anything, there is always something that can be done..just consider your own circumstances. i have also seen ppl put routers up in loft areas and in every situation that i have seen they regret making that decision, hauling 4X8s up stairs or by a pully system just gets old.

myself if i was going to be a full service sign shop doing everything and i was forced to work in a shop with these size limitations what i would probably do is build a fixed materials rack on one wall with various films, banner materials, laminates etc. right next to my design station. and then i would put the printer, plotter, laminator on locking casters with marked out areas on the ground for them. i would seriously plan my workflow so that i printed all jobs for the day, then cut what needed to cut, then laminate everything. it will be a pain, but this is a size restricted situation. if it is possible to place all machinery in a workable, useable manner then obviously dont put them on casters and just place them properly.

then i would have the shop divided into two sections with a floor to ceiling wall i would make the clean side as large as possible without making operating the router goofy cramped.. one side of the shop clean work the other for router, panel saw, and the like.

not for a moment do i think this is the only way to do it, just things i would consider.

 

[Bill Binns]

Segregate your router!!!!

 

[Techman]

Segregate your router!!!!

I agree 100 %. I have observed others running a router within the same building as a printer. But in those cases the router was separated by many dozens of feet in another closed off area behind closed doors...

In this case they will be within a door or two from each other. I know for a fact this will be a painful dirty mess. I have already tried such a setup and I will guarantee every one that the dust problems even with a dust system are not to be underestimated.

Running just one job with MDF will create a cloud of micro dust fines that will hang in the air for hours and settle into every corner of the building. AC systems will carry it into the offices and bathrooms. It will be every where. No AC,, well we have heaters then and that will be just as bad. This is fact even with a dust system. I moved my router to its own separate garage just for this reason.