Signs literally broke in half

[Stacey K]

Hi All - the baseball club ordered a bunch of signs last year and 3 signs three cracked in half. I'm pretty sure I had used the Bebond Premium 2 sided 3mm, - unless I used the economy? I rarely have any of that and avoid using it for these kinds of signs so I feel that's unlikely. That's the only thing I can think of. I've done probably 30 other signs for different fields etc. and never once had an issue. I do know other people install them with 2 vertical 2x4's like 1/3 in the middle of the sign and I see they used just bolts and a 2x4 on top.

I think I should drive over there and see if these are the only 3 in this particular area. Other signs I made them did not break. The other day we had gusts up to 70.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Those broke in the wind. I would have a frame go all around the perimeter, not just top and bottom. I'd also use fasteners every 2' minimum and several on the sides. With nothing on the back to protect it, it's more prone to wind damage. Make sure the lumber is treated. Yes, two vertical 2x4 in the middle, in addition to the edges would be better.

 

[unclebun]

If the bottom was loose they were probably whipped around by the wind and tore from the bottom to the top. Doubt the premium/economy would make any difference except maybe in the speed of wind required to do this. The wind from the storms this spring have been very high. You're up north so it was probably colder than down here, and that would make the plastic core more brittle.

 

[Stacey K]

OK well this makes me feel better. I'm going to swing over there after my install this morning and see if these are the only signs in this particular area or not.

 

[unclebun]

Given that Good Friday is this week my statement "tore from the bottom to the top" made me think that's the opposite of what happened to the curtain.

 

[Humble PM]

Looks like the bolts failed on a couple of them as well.

 

[MikePro]

+1 to above stated.
looks like the fasteners failed (or at least tore-through the panel) and then whipping&flexing did the rest.

probaby would have survived with a little extra reinforcement of the hardware orrrrr you can always upsell to your client the durability of a dibond panel on both sides of the fence

 

[JBurton]

dibond panel on both sides of the fence

This was my first thought.

But yeah, looks like a bolt on one side wobbled lose and folded the panels before tearing them. For a more resilient panel, starbond usa made stuff has a 100% ldpe core, you cannot score and snap the stuff. You can't score both sides and snap it. You can score both sides, fold it 20 times, then saw like hell with a razor blade to get the pieces to seperate.

 

[Gino]

The backs of these signs are all facing the outside of the field. I'd sooner think a bit of persuasion besides the wind was used on these. I agree, a few more fasteners could be used, but I find it hard to believe wind alone tore these free.

Look at the backs and see if there are any marks from a bat to a crow bar.

 

[MikePro]

crap, started making a followup post regarding the rusty drip lines at the fasteners but i realized I'm now just talking too much.
i stand by what everyone else thinks

 

[ikarasu]

Did they unbolt the signs? I find it odd that they'd Rip in half, from the center, and not rip the 2 remaining bolts apart. Or that they'd remove the remainder bolts... Stand it up and take a photo, instead of just send you a photo of it hanging off the fence.


if it ripoed in half due to the wind... Would it not rip all the bolts out as well? I've never seen winds strong enough to rip a sign in half, but still be held in by one or two bolts.... And it looks like each sign has at least 1 or 2 bolts missing from it, could.be an illusion, could be that they're ripped and it's hard to see from a photo.... But it could also be someone unbolted a few bolts to get leverage and then yanked to break them in half.


On another note.... Is using 2x4s standard for mounting to fences down there? We've always CNCd aluminum strips... Slide them through the fence grates and bolt then to the sign, and more recently we've started to use signlink fence clips, gives it a cleaner look, I don't think I've ever seen a sign mounted to a fence using 2x4s up here, nothing wrong with it and I imagine it's be a bit more rigid than using fence clips, just never thought of it and we've done hundreds of fence signs!

 

[ikarasu]

Didnt realize how bad looking at photos while on the phone was for s101 until now!

You used some pretty big washers, these holes are intact.... The bolt wouldn't just fall out on its own... I could buy 1, or 2 bolts falling out, but multiple bolts on each sign? and if it were ripped the hole would be ripped through. To me it looks more like someone unbolted these.... Whether it happened before, or after they broke is the question.... But I'm still leaning towards someone unbolted one side, grabbed and yanked and ripped them in half. A group of teens out at night having some fun...

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Did they unbolt the signs? I find it odd that they'd Rip in half, from the center, and not rip the 2 remaining bolts apart. Or that they'd remove the remainder bolts... Stand it up and take a photo, instead of just send you a photo of it hanging off the fence.


if it ripoed in half due to the wind... Would it not rip all the bolts out as well? I've never seen winds strong enough to rip a sign in half, but still be held in by one or two bolts.... And it looks like each sign has at least 1 or 2 bolts missing from it, could.be an illusion, could be that they're ripped and it's hard to see from a photo.... But it could also be someone unbolted a few bolts to get leverage and then yanked to break them in half.


On another note.... Is using 2x4s standard for mounting to fences down there? We've always CNCd aluminum strips... Slide them through the fence grates and bolt then to the sign, and more recently we've started to use signlink fence clips, gives it a cleaner look, I don't think I've ever seen a sign mounted to a fence using 2x4s up here, nothing wrong with it and I imagine it's be a bit more rigid than using fence clips, just never thought of it and we've done hundreds of fence signs!

I've seen ACM get real brittle after a year outdoors. When it's fresh and in the shop, they bend pretty far before breaking. After some time outdoors, I can take an old sign down and fold it over to save space and it immediately cracks. Stacey is in the north so it's probably cold and brittle. Yea, why use wood when you can CNC aluminum strips? Maybe cause she don't have a CNC? Or customer doesn't want to pay for aluminum flat bar cause it a little league sponsor sign... let's put on the thinking cap.

 

[ikarasu]

I've seen ACM get real brittle after a year outdoors. When it's fresh and in the shop, they bend pretty far before breaking. After some time outdoors, I can take an old sign down and fold it over to save space and it immediately cracks. Stacey is in the north so it's probably cold and brittle. Yea, why use wood when you can CNC aluminum strips? Maybe cause she don't have a CNC? Or customer doesn't want to pay for aluminum flat bar cause it a little league sponsor sign... let's put on the thinking cap.

It can be brittle, but how did the bolts fall out? The hole isn't ripped... the bolts came straight out, they didn't rip out, at least in the screenshots I posted - can't see the darker areas. So unless the sign broke in half and someone went out there and took the bolts out so the sign didn't fly away? Either way...someone definitely removed the bolts, whether it was before or after the sign ripped, that many bolts arent going to fall out on their own no matter how loose they may be.


Signlink fence clips are $1 each... https://www.signhardware.us/signlink I believe grimco sells them for less, We get them for about 50 cents a piece here and that includes the bolt and the clip, no need for a CNC...and one reason why we switched to them over aluminum strips. probably end up cheaper than a 2x4 if you factor in bolt costs. Buuut like I said, nothing wrong with the 2X4 on the back, I've just never seen it used in this way before, it's definitely not common here, so I was curious.

 

[John Miller]

If the 2x4s were running horizontally, this would probably not happen. Also, remember that PVC gets brittle in cold weather. These signs should be made of ACP. Take a 3" hole saw and cut 8 discs. Drill a 1'/4" hole through the sign and put a 1/4 / 20 machine bolt through the face with a fender washer, put the 3" disk in the with another fender washer in the back, tighten up to squeeze into the chain link fence. Use 4 across the top about 8" down and 4 across the bottom about 8" up. The fence is the structure, no problems.

 

[Stacey K]

Didnt realize how bad looking at photos while on the phone was for s101 until now!

You used some pretty big washers, these holes are intact.... The bolt wouldn't just fall out on its own... I could buy 1, or 2 bolts falling out, but multiple bolts on each sign? and if it were ripped the hole would be ripped through. To me it looks more like someone unbolted these.... Whether it happened before, or after they broke is the question.... But I'm still leaning towards someone unbolted one side, grabbed and yanked and ripped them in half. A group of teens out at night having some fun...

I didn't install them, the baseclub does. The soccer field people use 2x4's on the back and never had an issue. Just by looking at how they installed these it seems wonky

 

[Stacey K]

I don't install these, the baseball club does. They have been installing them for many years and I just took over doing signs about 2 years ago. I don't think this is a great installation technique and I did suggest to using the 2x4's like the soccer field people do. I don't know if they will listen or not.

 

[citysignshop]

Ummmm.....old guy here. I find it fascinating the extent we'll go to make ACM work in a place it's not really that good for. A bunch of 2x4's, dozens of fasteners, clips, hardware, wind issues etc.
If this were a sheet of 5/8" Crezone/MDO this discussion wouldn't be happening!
Obviously this works for you in most situations....I'd say any sign subject to being hit by a fly ball, and hung on a fence within reach of vandals, installed by others....would not be warrantied in any way beyond the graphics.
( grumble-grumble-back-in-th'-old-days-where's-my-coffee.....etc.)

 

[JBurton]

It can be brittle, but how did the bolts fall out? The hole isn't ripped... the bolts came straight out, they didn't rip out, at least in the screenshots I posted - can't see the darker areas. So unless the sign broke in half and someone went out there and took the bolts out so the sign didn't fly away? Either way...someone definitely removed the bolts

God did it.
No joke. If they were bolting these through a chain link, and not using something like a nylon lock nut, then there will always be a touch of play unless they sucked the bolt all the way to the wood, at which point it'd oilpan like crazy. They porbably tightened one to the max, realized how bad it looked, flattened it out, then gingerly tightened all the others to a really rather loose state. Then the wind came along and allowed enough vibration to put slack on a lock washer, backing off the nut little by little over time.
Next time have them bolt stringers to the 'face' side of the fence, then screw/bolt down the panels flush to the stringers.

make ACM work in a place it's not really that good for.

I mean, if they want 10 of these panels, my difference in MDO vs ACM (selling price) is $155 per panel, so they'd save a big chunk of change.

 

[Stacey K]

Since so many are invested in this, I put my winter coat on and went to do some detective work...watch till the end and you will see the problem...