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SIGNS365.com - is destroying my reputation and costing me $$
- Thread starter Todd-sta
- Start date
I don't have a printer and steered-clear of digital work until about 2 years ago when I started using signs365. I have been super happy with them. Over hundreds of jobs, they have maybe goofed up 2-3 times and always made it right by either immediately shipping out replacement or giving me a refund. They have even stopped production when it there was a error on my part (wrong PMS callout, poor art) and contacted me promptly so I could fix it.
Sorry you haven't had the same experience.
Sorry you haven't had the same experience.
I didn't notice in the OP's post when he uploaded the files for such a time sensitive job that his entire reputation was riding on. Or if he really understood their holiday schedule and took that into account when choosing which wholesaler to rely on.
I have to ask, do or did your customer know you'd be using an outside source for their work? You know, for the sake of your reputation and all.
As others have stated, we only use a wholesaler for things we absolutely can't produce in house and we make sure we are sending rock solid files with all the "t"s crossed and "i"s dotted.
We have a number of local basement dweller, home garage operators in our area who will use wholesalers for nearly everything they do and we can always tell when we lose a job to them. When asked the client will tell us with great pride and consternation towards us that so and so did whatever project for a third of what we quoted to do them in house. This dynamic achieves two results, it undermines the true value of the advertising we are producing which has an intrinsic value above and beyond a commodity per square foot price and it implants the perception in our customers minds that the legitimate shops in the area are gougers out to rip everyone off.
The idea of using wholesale printers is to help you out in a pinch or with work you can't produce yourself, not to destroy your local sign market by simply acting as a low paid middle man and trying to ridiculously undercut everybody who has invested in equipment and a brick and mortar location.
I have to ask, do or did your customer know you'd be using an outside source for their work? You know, for the sake of your reputation and all.
As others have stated, we only use a wholesaler for things we absolutely can't produce in house and we make sure we are sending rock solid files with all the "t"s crossed and "i"s dotted.
We have a number of local basement dweller, home garage operators in our area who will use wholesalers for nearly everything they do and we can always tell when we lose a job to them. When asked the client will tell us with great pride and consternation towards us that so and so did whatever project for a third of what we quoted to do them in house. This dynamic achieves two results, it undermines the true value of the advertising we are producing which has an intrinsic value above and beyond a commodity per square foot price and it implants the perception in our customers minds that the legitimate shops in the area are gougers out to rip everyone off.
The idea of using wholesale printers is to help you out in a pinch or with work you can't produce yourself, not to destroy your local sign market by simply acting as a low paid middle man and trying to ridiculously undercut everybody who has invested in equipment and a brick and mortar location.
FireSprint.com
Trade Only Screen & Digital Sign Printing
Thats sad to hear about your experience with Signs 365. They have grown really fast and are a successful trade supplier like ourselves. Growing that fast is challenging though and sometimes trouble arises from it.
If there's anything we can help with, we would love to!
FireSprint: Customer Registration
If there's anything we can help with, we would love to!
FireSprint: Customer Registration
printhog
New Member
my first three orders with signs365 had different colors - I originally ordered a swatch proof set (cmyk, lab and rgb builds to see what would be best) to find the right color. With that i should have received the proper color in the finished product. Somehow they switched something and delivered a major shift. There were three lab spot call outs and press compliance strips embedded. On the third print, the cmyk test wedges were off by as much as 15% density from my proof set.. The result was a dreary washed out color vs a rich jewel tone. Add to that the prints were blurry every two feet.
They said they do not support color matching or industry standards like G7 and ICC profiling. I guess there's a place for that lack of service and quality, but even McDonald's gets the fries and burgers to taste the same everywhere anytime of day. I know now they cant be trusted to get correct color.
They said they do not support color matching or industry standards like G7 and ICC profiling. I guess there's a place for that lack of service and quality, but even McDonald's gets the fries and burgers to taste the same everywhere anytime of day. I know now they cant be trusted to get correct color.
Johnny Best
Active Member
Signs365 color matching won't kill you like the burgers and fries from McDonald's.
I send them .pdf files and colors are perfect. I get banners and vinyl from them, I have a printer but for large things they save me time.
But like with anything you order online, there always will be screwups eventually.
I send them .pdf files and colors are perfect. I get banners and vinyl from them, I have a printer but for large things they save me time.
But like with anything you order online, there always will be screwups eventually.
They use RGB strictly from what I was told.
When I call out PMS colors during ordering, they usually come out fine in the end product. For the products they sell where they don't offer PMS matching, you can set the RGB profile for that color in Photoshop or Illustrator and I find that comes out pretty consistently from them, at least for me. I also talked to their pre-press people and they helped me get my files so the colors were more consistent.
They aren't making jewelry, but they are indispensable to shops like mine that cannot (and do not want to) make the jump to digital. I charge the same square foot price I used to charge 10 years ago when I produced banners with paint and vinyl and I make a killing. I'll never paint another banner as long as I live.
When I call out PMS colors during ordering, they usually come out fine in the end product. For the products they sell where they don't offer PMS matching, you can set the RGB profile for that color in Photoshop or Illustrator and I find that comes out pretty consistently from them, at least for me. I also talked to their pre-press people and they helped me get my files so the colors were more consistent.
They aren't making jewelry, but they are indispensable to shops like mine that cannot (and do not want to) make the jump to digital. I charge the same square foot price I used to charge 10 years ago when I produced banners with paint and vinyl and I make a killing. I'll never paint another banner as long as I live.
They use RGB strictly from what I was told.
When I call out PMS colors during ordering, they usually come out fine in the end product. For the products they sell where they don't offer PMS matching, you can set the RGB profile for that color in Photoshop or Illustrator and I find that comes out pretty consistently from them, at least for me. I also talked to their pre-press people and they helped me get my files so the colors were more consistent.
They aren't making jewelry, but they are indispensable to shops like mine that cannot (and do not want to) make the jump to digital. I charge the same square foot price I used to charge 10 years ago when I produced banners with paint and vinyl and I make a killing. I'll never paint another banner as long as I live.
You bring up a good point about using wholesalers in general and I hope other folks aren't doing what I see regularly done in my area. Sign work no matter who produces it, ourselves in our own shops or a wholesaler has an intrinsic value for the worth of its advertising in addition to the production costs. We have multiple competitors who will take the the wholesale price they paid and even if doubling it and acting strictly as a middle man, are killing the local market for any kind of work that a wholesaler can do quite a bit cheaper than any of the legitimate, professional shops in the area can do it for and still keep the lights on and employees paid a decent wage and benefits.
When an entire area's market rate for banners is normally $6.50-8 per square foot and suddenly somebody is selling them for $4 or less, it has a dual effect. Especially if the uneducated or unwilling to consider the long term ramifications are passing the work off as locally produced.
One, it depresses and distorts the prices for the entire market and secondly, it paints a picture in the eyes of the unknowing and deal seeking customer that the brick and mortar shop charging $6-8 per square foot is a ripoff who gouges their customers.
To combat this, we always ask customers who balk at our pricing or reveal how cheap the "other guy's" quote is, whether or not they know the work was done in house and whether or not they support local, small businesses. Hell, we even have a competitor who has made it a habit of using unlaminated prints on wraps in order to underbid everyone else. We have two tow trucks to do next week for jobs less than 2 years old that the printed graphics are now nearly white from fading.
Resources like Signs365, etc. can be a great time saver and help in a pinch. If all they are used for is to undermine the local market, just remember that they can only go so low on their prices before they lose viability.
Not to get to political or derail this thread, and you make good points, but I came up in the sign world in the late 1980's when the Gerber sign machine was starting to make it possible for people with no sign experience to put journeyman signpainters out of work. With no background in the business, little knowledge of materials, they sold signs with no design, no visual appeal, and as cheap as possible.
I am a journey man signmaker with 30 years in the business, 22 years as my own boss. There was a time, about 10 years ago, that I started making fewer and fewer banners because any company with a printer could produce them cheaper than I could. In fact, I worked with a large hospital that ordered around 50 banners a year which is a lot for small shop and they went to a shop with a digital printer because they were a little cheaper.
So if I was to now produce banners cheaper than they can and take that customer back, why should I feel bad?
I am a journey man signmaker with 30 years in the business, 22 years as my own boss. There was a time, about 10 years ago, that I started making fewer and fewer banners because any company with a printer could produce them cheaper than I could. In fact, I worked with a large hospital that ordered around 50 banners a year which is a lot for small shop and they went to a shop with a digital printer because they were a little cheaper.
So if I was to now produce banners cheaper than they can and take that customer back, why should I feel bad?
DerbyCitySignGuy
New Member
I get where Tim is coming from, but you shouldn't feel bad. Look at what Circle did to the billboard market. It's business. Gotta do what you gotta do.
I'm 37 years in the craft, starting from a traditional, union backed, trade school education in sign design and production, so I've had to adapt just like any of us older craftspeople. If anyone would know the "intrinsic" value of our work is would us right?
I wasn't personalizing the argument to you, it was a generalized view of what I've seen now in four different parts of the country I've worked in.
So, today you do them for $5 per square foot just to get that client back, and then tomorrow will you do them for only $4 per square foot to undermine another client you lost to some unscrupulous competitor or one who just never knew what the work should really be priced at?
If they are worth $6-8 per square foot or more for their advertising and production values, why would you want to help hasten the dive to the bottom of the barrel?
Maybe trying to get to know our competitors undermining the market and come to some understanding of what our hard work is really worth is a better approach than putting a swimsuit on and diving for the pennies at the bottom of the pool.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
So, who determined the $6.50 to $8.00 a sq ft ?? You, or is that what you heard 37 years ago and wanted to just stay status quo ?? Perhaps, because it took talent back then and only basically talented people could produce most types of signs. Now, you have business minded people in the game and they are trying to get what they can because the pie slices have recently become 100's of times smaller, if you haven't noticed. While you and most of your colleagues are pushing buttons and farming out, they don't hafta work near as hard, therefore not charge as much if they don't want to and still make a good buck.
I'm at it 46 years on a professional level and it never ceases to amaze me how so many people wanna re-invent the wheel, when it's the tools making the wheel which have been re-invented. We aren't using chisels and hammers like Fred Flintstone, we're using very modern technology and machinery which as most people know, make it easier for everyone to get into this industry, so as y'all say all the time..... share and share alike and stop bickering about what someone else gets and just worry what you get to keep your OWN doors open.
I'm at it 46 years on a professional level and it never ceases to amaze me how so many people wanna re-invent the wheel, when it's the tools making the wheel which have been re-invented. We aren't using chisels and hammers like Fred Flintstone, we're using very modern technology and machinery which as most people know, make it easier for everyone to get into this industry, so as y'all say all the time..... share and share alike and stop bickering about what someone else gets and just worry what you get to keep your OWN doors open.
Billct2
Active Member
I'm usually selling more than a banner, or a yard sign (two of the products I will frequently sub out). I'm selling a service that includes selecting the right product for the application and most of the time design, and often the installation. So the cost of the sign is often a small percentage of the bill. Wish it was as small as a cup of paint used to figure in the value of a sign.
I am third generation signmaker, serving an apprenticeship under sign painters and other sign craftsmen, so we are probably not that different. I make most of my money on dimensional signs, still cutting out letters on a band saw and scroll saw, gluing up blanks, faux finishing, hand mixing paints etc. I have a good little niche where I am from and have no problem competing with larger companies who have CNC routers.
I charge a fair price for banners when I design them, but I do have a few marketing groups that have in-house designers, so when they order banners from me, I don't charge them $6-8 a square foot because I am literally just uploading their file to signs365 and pushing a button. I wouldn't feel right charging them a 400% mark up. even charging them a fair price I make a good amount of money. and with those clients I make most of my money on custom signs, not the occasional banner order.
But I have thought about revisiting that hospital. They do have an in-house designer, so if I charged them $3.50 a square foot, I would still make decent money without lifting a finger. But I haven't done it yet.
But as for dropping my banner price to $4 and lower, nah. A customer wanting a super cheapo banner is not the kind of customers I have (generally). If I had my way I would do nothing but reception-area signage for the rest of my sign life. Lots of profit, fun to make, No worry about weather, room fro creativity and the customers are usually super happy to see you and ooh and ahh over the signs when they are done. Very rewarding work.
I charge a fair price for banners when I design them, but I do have a few marketing groups that have in-house designers, so when they order banners from me, I don't charge them $6-8 a square foot because I am literally just uploading their file to signs365 and pushing a button. I wouldn't feel right charging them a 400% mark up. even charging them a fair price I make a good amount of money. and with those clients I make most of my money on custom signs, not the occasional banner order.
But I have thought about revisiting that hospital. They do have an in-house designer, so if I charged them $3.50 a square foot, I would still make decent money without lifting a finger. But I haven't done it yet.
But as for dropping my banner price to $4 and lower, nah. A customer wanting a super cheapo banner is not the kind of customers I have (generally). If I had my way I would do nothing but reception-area signage for the rest of my sign life. Lots of profit, fun to make, No worry about weather, room fro creativity and the customers are usually super happy to see you and ooh and ahh over the signs when they are done. Very rewarding work.
We need to make sure we're comparing apples to apples. These designers and ad agencies you are supplying with essentially double wholesaled banners are turning around and doubling or tripling what you charge them for the banners, so at least in that case, the end user is still paying the full retail cost of the advertising they are receiving. I NEVER hesitate to tell anyone we are doing wholesale work for that the banner will cost them $5.00 per square foot and they should be charging $8.
I'm a signmaker, not a middle man. The only stuff we use wholesalers for is stuff we can't produce in house for equipment reasons. We and our staff have decided that we'll work overtime, nights or weekends and pay ourselves more before we turn our work over to some far off corporation that we can't control or see how they pay their employees. I care about and respect the signmaking craft and its future, not just making as easy of money as possible.
What I disagree with is anyone who knows what the going retail rate for banners or other types of signs is and then goes through wholesale printers and then purposely undermines those retail prices in order to get one over on all the competition. I guarantee that if somebody set up shop in your town and started doing your niche work for far less and passing those far below market rate prices onto all your customers, you'd be upset about it. It doesn't matter what your favorite type of work is, it matters what customers say about you to others when they get one of these other types of signs for way cheaper than it should be and people start presuming you're gouging them because you charge what the work is really worth.
I'm not sure what your original country of origin is, but in America to give ANYTHING away for less than full value to a hospital is crazy. You think they are going to give you the signpainter's discount when you go in for a heart transplant?
We do wholesale work for several signmakers in our area because we are the only local shop that has a UV flatbed printer, and a larger inkjet printer that can do contour cuts than they all have. We give them a discount that is usually in the 20-25% range depending on how much labor we have to put into their files and outputs. We also tell them that percentage, so they can mark up the work accordingly without damaging our local market rates. If they choose to do all the leg work, installation and hassle with the customer and not at least add 25% or more onto the job, then at least I know we didn't kill the market by very much. While not making as much profit as we normally do, 30-40%, we know we helped them out and protected the going rate of the area for that type of work.
Yeah, I too make everything in-house, but digital shops killed my banner sales. that's why I don't really see the concern over "being fair" with some arbitrary pricing guideline. I was born and raised in America, I know not to give a hospital a discount, but if I am paying $1.50 a square foot and charging them $3.50 when they supplied the (perfect) artwork,how would that be giving them a discount? this is all speculation, though, because I haven't approached them to bid on banner jobs.
Your example of someone coming in and selling what I did for far less already happened to me with the banners. As fo my niche work (dimensional), I don't see how anyone could do the type of work I do for "far less" and still stay in business. A 1-man, old signpainter studio could, but the pricing would most likely be similar to mine. I have visited massive print shops with every high end printer imaginable and 2-3 CNC routers and literally watched as they spent half a day trying to get the printer to match a color on Sintra so they could cut out letters. Fail after fail -- we're talking 2-3 employees working for 4 hours on a problem that could be solved if any of them knew how to mix paint and do a coat-out. Even when they finally got it right, the edges of the letters were left white (where's the face palm emoji?). I am not worried about them under selling me, but I get your point.
IslandSignWorks
New Member
We used to use Signs365 heavily before we invested in our own equipment. We were one of their first big customers, back when it was easy to get one of the shop floor supervisors on the phone to talk about technical questions. Now you're stuck using their non-awesome web interface or talking to a know-nothing call center robot. I only use them for oversize stuff we can't do inhouse and my experience is similar with errors and quality problems. If we have the oversize banners printed, we do the hems and grommets in-house because they will screw them up every time.
We're a small vinyl mostly shop. We've been using Signs365 for 3 or 4 years now. After hundreds of files uploaded and printed, we have been completely happy with everything we've received. The only issue we've had was with a 3' x 10' backlighted print. The cardboard delivery tube was badly dented and caused a wrinkle the length of the print. A call to their customer support resulted in a quick reprint and shipping at no cost to us. I guess they and FedEx argued the issue later.
Their banners, yardsigns, and adhesive printing has been exceptionally good. Their customer service has always been friendly, polite and professional.
Just sayin'.
Their banners, yardsigns, and adhesive printing has been exceptionally good. Their customer service has always been friendly, polite and professional.
Just sayin'.
Todd-sta
New Member
There is always a 'guy like you' that chimes in with judgmental negativity....I don't do work to make slim to no profit. You may choose to do that, and that is fine. Signs365 is an ENORMOUS facility with wide ranging quality services. I have had excellent interaction with them until just recently.... which I believe is more related to an employee management problem rather than a corporate-wide breakdown or an inherently poor business model.
They stepped up to the plate and made this last snafu 'right'...... once I got the Manager involved. In fact, they slid my missing banners into production and next-day shipped them to my customer in time for the event...and credited me the total of the job. Thus, my amended post.
I take offense to your smug comment that I am a skinflint who has unrealistic expectations. It sounds to me like you resent wholesale shops because it cuts into your OVERpriced products?