Discussion So, Why Is It.....................................

[AKwrapguy]

My two cents... I have come here looking for help several times and from what I've seen as long as you're respectful, and actively engage with people trying to help you get great help and advice. Granted some people will disagree on things like solvent vs latex, 3M vs Orafol vs Avery, workflow, etc...and yes some of the post get off topic but this happens everywhere on every forum. I can see where Gino is coming from but I think that a lot of it is the OP and their attitude.

 

[Gino]

Mostly, it's not about who's right or wrong, but to have an online discussion on taking this bull by the horns and fixing it.
There are so many places you can go to get insulted or ridiculed and it's also free, but exactly that...... FREE. These people are coming in here free and clear and many of them aren't even interested in signs as a business, let alone a way of making a living for their many employees or any long term visions...... they are living from hand-to-mouth and just want quick fixes and not worrying about what the customer gets in the end. They are worried about making some money at anybody's expense, but their own. This not only gives every sign maker afterwards a mess to clean up, but makes other idiots think they can come in and ruin something good.

Now, the easy thing would be..... Okay, just not answer these people or let 'em shoot themselves in the foot, but with so many of these people coming in..... we've gt to think of something or this place will soon be a ghost town.

 

[equippaint]

I think many of us here, have cited enough for a small cross section of what this thread is about......or at least show others what we mean.

I don't want to belittle these people, but in their arrogance and stupidity..... they need it. Something has got to hit them between the eyes so maybe they can see their mistakes.

• When you go to school, you don't argue with the teachers if your answers are wrong, do you ??
• If you were working at a gas station and the customer wanted motor oil and you poured transmission oil down the spout, would that be alright ??
• When someone asks for directions to some place, do you give them directions for some other place ??
• While working at a restaurant, do you decide what to give the patrons, instead of what they ordered ??
• Working at the shoe store, do you try to fit a size 9.5 shoe on a 10.5 foot ??

Why do all of these people wanna take a short-cut and when things are explained, they cop an attitude and get all indignant ??

So, is there something we could do to help this matter and make this a better place ??

I've seen some ideas already in this short time, which look very interesting in trying to administer. Any thoughts ??

Not trying to start any arguments but I think many people on here take questioning to their response as being arrogant, confrontational or whatever you want to call it when the OP never seems to be argumentative. You know this. I see it on here all the time. There's a handful of people here that are down right hateful to anyone starting out or expanding and it's seen in their replies. They target these newbie posts and then cry foul when they're called out on it. Theres many ways to get to the same outcome and often times its considered argumentative.
I quoted you not to single you out but to offer an alternative perspective to your bullet points.

Teachers are wrong sometimes just like everyone else. I would and have argued with them and sometimes Im right and sometimes they have shown me why I was wrong, thats how you really learn. They never punched me or kicked me in my nuts over it though.

Oil analogy doesn't fit, that would be a mistake and we all make them. However, what if you poured transmission fluid in the power steering? Its not labeled power steering fluid.

If someone asks me for directions, I give them alternatives. You can go this way or that way. The thing here is that people say there is only 1 way to get there and it's my way. If you dont like it go F yourself.

If Im working in a restaurant and was a server, I would tell someone dont order something if it was crappy. We change things here too. If we dont feel its in the customers best interest to do it their way we do it different and tell them after. We even change colors on paint jobs when I know what they want will be stupid.

When I buy boots, they bring out a different size than my shoes. Actually just bought some Ropers and used my regular boot size and they gave me a half size down knowing that they run large.

Its not the new posters and newbies that will make this place a ghost town, its the confrontational attitudes of a handful of people that will do that. Its all over the place. They come and go before you even have any idea of what other things they know and can help with.

The same thing happens in A/C forums. Someone asks what correct pressures are and they are flamed and told the ONLY way to charge is by checking subcooling or superheat. That is the way to get it "right" but pressures will get most systems good enough and working which is really what people are after. Many techs dont know how to calculate subcooling or superheat and pretty much all car/bus guys dont but do just fine in the trade. It doesnt mean theyre dumb

 

[ikarasu]

Why don't we have a sticky with common answers / topics?

We could explain the difference between eco solvent, latex, uv, warn against Chinese brands. List a couple recommended matterials... The difference between cast/callandered.

An actual "101" for signs. I know it's hand holding, but at least it'd be done once.. there would still be the one casual person asking questions they shouldnt, and we could just link them to the thread.

It wouldn't solve ALL the problems, but it'd be a place for people to start off when looking to expand their business, or get into digital printing. It may even bring more people to the forum... Hopefully silent ones who like to do their own research ;p

 

[Pippin Decals]

I like that idea ikarasu. It would be a go to first and then ask questions if needed.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Not trying to start any arguments but I think many people on here take questioning to their response as being arrogant, confrontational or whatever you want to call it when the OP never seems to be argumentative. You know this. I see it on here all the time. There's a handful of people here that are down right hateful to anyone starting out or expanding and it's seen in their replies. They target these newbie posts and then cry foul when they're called out on it. Theres many ways to get to the same outcome and often times its considered argumentative.
I quoted you not to single you out but to offer an alternative perspective to your bullet points.

Teachers are wrong sometimes just like everyone else. I would and have argued with them and sometimes Im right and sometimes they have shown me why I was wrong, thats how you really learn. They never punched me or kicked me in my nuts over it though.

Oil analogy doesn't fit, that would be a mistake and we all make them. However, what if you poured transmission fluid in the power steering? Its not labeled power steering fluid.

If someone asks me for directions, I give them alternatives. You can go this way or that way. The thing here is that people say there is only 1 way to get there and it's my way. If you dont like it go F yourself.

If Im working in a restaurant and was a server, I would tell someone dont order something if it was crappy. We change things here too. If we dont feel its in the customers best interest to do it their way we do it different and tell them after. We even change colors on paint jobs when I know what they want will be stupid.

When I buy boots, they bring out a different size than my shoes. Actually just bought some Ropers and used my regular boot size and they gave me a half size down knowing that they run large.

Its not the new posters and newbies that will make this place a ghost town, its the confrontational attitudes of a handful of people that will do that. Its all over the place. They come and go before you even have any idea of what other things they know and can help with.

The same thing happens in A/C forums. Someone asks what correct pressures are and they are flamed and told the ONLY way to charge is by checking subcooling or superheat. That is the way to get it "right" but pressures will get most systems good enough and working which is really what people are after. Many techs dont know how to calculate subcooling or superheat and pretty much all car/bus guys dont but do just fine in the trade. It doesnt mean theyre dumb

Couldnt agree more. Im put off of participating now

 

[Gino]

Not trying to start any arguments but I think many people on here take questioning to their response as being arrogant, confrontational or whatever you want to call it when the OP never seems to be argumentative. You know this. I see it on here all the time. There's a handful of people here that are down right hateful to anyone starting out or expanding and it's seen in their replies. They target these newbie posts and then cry foul when they're called out on it. Theres many ways to get to the same outcome and often times its considered argumentative.
I quoted you not to single you out but to offer an alternative perspective to your bullet points.

This isn't about arguments..... or agreements. It's really about how we can stop all of what you're talking about from happening to some degree.

As for people here of whom you say are argumentative or hateful, it's because the exact same questions are asked 100's of times and the OP's always get butt-hurt about the answers regardless of what tone is used.

Teachers are wrong sometimes just like everyone else. I would and have argued with them and sometimes Im right and sometimes they have shown me why I was wrong, thats how you really learn. They never punched me or kicked me in my nuts over it though.

There are exceptions to everything and everyone.

Oil analogy doesn't fit, that would be a mistake and we all make them. However, what if you poured transmission fluid in the power steering? Its not labeled power steering fluid.

Again, exceptions. We all make mistakes, but educated people will learn from their mistakes.... or from others mistakes.

If someone asks me for directions, I give them alternatives. You can go this way or that way. The thing here is that people say there is only 1 way to get there and it's my way. If you dont like it go F yourself.

So, rather than give someone who is totally lost and does not know the area and a direct route, you're gonna further confuse them with options ??

If Im working in a restaurant and was a server, I would tell someone dont order something if it was crappy. We change things here too. If we dont feel its in the customers best interest to do it their way we do it different and tell them after. We even change colors on paint jobs when I know what they want will be stupid.

If someone offered a suggestion, I'd listen, but I will not listen to someone if I KNOW what I want. It is their job in working there to do just that. Otherwise, they'll be fired for overstepping their boundaries.

When I buy boots, they bring out a different size than my shoes. Actually just bought some Ropers and used my regular boot size and they gave me a half size down knowing that they run large.

Again, with the exceptions. Of someone knows ahead of time of varying conditions, it is most helpful to pass those tips along.

Its not the new posters and newbies that will make this place a ghost town, its the confrontational attitudes of a handful of people that will do that. Its all over the place. They come and go before you even have any idea of what other things they know and can help with.

I didn't say THEY would make it a ghost town, they'll be the cause of it. It's already happening and quite extensively. So many of the really good professionals have stopped coming around and it's a shame. There is so much information out there, but these people are standing in the wings..... watching and waiting.

The same thing happens in A/C forums. Someone asks what correct pressures are and they are flamed and told the ONLY way to charge is by checking subcooling or superheat. That is the way to get it "right" but pressures will get most systems good enough and working which is really what people are after. Many techs dont know how to calculate subcooling or superheat and pretty much all car/bus guys dont but do just fine in the trade. It doesnt mean theyre dumb

That one, I don't have an answer to and it doesn't seem relevant t me anyway, so I'll skip on that one.

Like I said all along, this is happening at an increasingly alarming rate and while it still gets the title of the largest sign forum, it's soon gonna be the largest hobby-town where you can make signs, too.

I like this place and have been here about 11 years. I've seen and have been in quite a few brawls, but nothing no one can't sweep under the rug, unless you have an ego problem. Many of those people have gone away. Some come back from time to time, but they remain on the sidelines as well as some of the other professionals.
My point to all of this is..... if we don't nip this thing soon, there won't be any real content, soon. If no one uses.... or knows how to use the 'Search Button' which is quite evident, this is all gonna be for naught. As soon, there won't be anything or anybody left to answer all these mundane fundamental questions.

If it wasn't for Google, most questions here wouldn't be answered by anyone other than a professional, who knows it already. Then, you have 30 people who google it up and give their take on what they've just read. Is that how yu want future questions answered ?? This is what I'm getting at.

 

[bob]

Why don't we have a sticky with common answers / topics?...p

Just like any other FAQ, no one would actually read it.

Everyone thinks that they are special and by extension that their problems are special. Being so special how could they possibly find a solution to their particular and special dilemma in some compendium of generic, and thereby mundane, problems and solutions.

They want a specific solution to their specific, and special, problem. They do not want to extrapolate a solution to their special problem from a collection of wisdom.

Besides, it's vastly more entertaining to be able to actually engage on a really stupid question that to refer someone to a FAQ. Don't ever think that there's no such thing as a stupid question. The air of full of them. To ask a good and non-stupid question requires a certain level of familiarity with the subject as well as a rudimentary grasp of the attendant nomenclature. No doubt the legions of budding Pollyannas in these waters are aghast at this notion. Just as the battalions of curmudgeons might take some small pleasure in it.

 

[Gino]

Couldnt agree more. Im put off of participating now

Now, I find this answer most interesting.

Here is someone, who since his arrival, has done nothing but ask question after question after question. Only one post had some sort information and that wasn't really clear.

Again, no one has said... to participate you must contribute so much in order to take so much, but what you've participated in so far, that you're no longer coming here is gonna do any harm to anyone, but yourself ??

You got all bent outta shape from my answer the other day, and yet I've given you good and helpful advice on many occasions. I'm not looking for any recognition, but when you come here and take, take, take and then make fun of others who are honestly helping..... who needs your kind ?? This place is a give & take atmosphere. Some give and others take. However, when someone starts up with idle threats, that is wrong. In my opinion, more wrong than someone being brutally honest and telling it like it is. Ya'll wanna be spoon fed and have everything sugarcoated ?? Grow some b@lls and start putting to work what you're learning and report back with how this place is helping you, rather than tearing it apart, further.

I don't wanna see anyone leave, but if you're worthless like trash, it gets thrown out or just tossed aside.

So, who wants to be which/what ??

 

[ikarasu]

Just like any other FAQ, no one would actually read it.

.

I'd like to believe people aren't that lazy.

If I didn't know a thing about printing, and I searched on here which printer to buy, and saw a million threads about latex, sublimation, eco solvent, uv, 20 different brands... I may be so inclined to post a question about which should I buy... It's a lot easier and faster.

If it were all laid out in a faq...I'm sure some people would read it. And those who don't... A simple copy paste to the link saying read this, if you have questions after feel free to post them, would get rid of all the most basic questions people ask.

I don't mind helping people out - I'm still a relative newbie when it comes to signage, but I reply when I know the answer or can help out.

I've been on s101 for less than a year... And all the basic questions that have started to pop up irks me. I imagine all the veterans feel it 100x what I do.

With an influx in users, comes an influx in new interest to the business. We can keep answering and advising basic questions, which I feel like is 75% of the recent posts... Or we can try to do something to help educate the new people.

Heck, if it's a community faq, maybe some of the old timers can learn something new also

Anyways, was just an idea! I don't have enough experience to make anything worthwhile. It'd probably be a big project to create (even if the admin agreed to it). I do think it'd benefit the site if there were less l posts about what to buy, or do basic things... The quality of the posts bring in / keep people around. If it continues this way... All the knowledgeable users will tire out and go elsewhere. Then it'll just be a graveyard of "I have $2000, which printer can I buy to do car wraps, will this $100 roll I found on eBay work, and by the way, how do I wrap a car?!" Posts.

 

[Billct2]

Wish the name had been different from the start...something like SignPros.com so maybe there would be an understanding before hand that this isn't (or at least wasn't) a place for hobbyists or fakers.

 

[Rick]

I think when people stop coming here, it's rarely ego... maybe mental self preservation, I think people who stop coming here is because...

-- Newbies have thin skin when they just plopped down 20-30k (one example I show spent 185k) on equipment they know nothing about...
-- They are frustrated because after the expenditure, they realize they need to pay it off...
-- They have some ongoing issues in their lives, where participating on a forum may not be compatible with their emotional ability to maintain civility...
-- They get a life...
-- They realize the reward for participating does not match the contribution they put in...
-- When management inadvertently let's trolls back in...
-- Certain members think their actions should never affect someones emotions so it gives them license to act like an arse so why participate if it's ongoing (that is ego)...
-- Oh... and they get a life...

 

[Bigdawg]

Its not the new posters and newbies that will make this place a ghost town, its the confrontational attitudes of a handful of people that will do that. Its all over the place. They come and go before you even have any idea of what other things they know and can help with.

I've been on here for many years. Started out not knowing a thing about signs except we kept getting calls to do them (we did screenprinting and printing). When I came here and asked stupid questions - and I did - the replies weren't as judgemental or sometimes downright hateful to those stupid questions. I even got banned once because of that ignorance. I've seen this forum from the outside as a member and from the inside as an administrator. The whole tone here has changed... and it happened way before the new owner of the site.

When an industry quits wanting to teach the newcomers... that industry dies. I have not ever painted a sign. I can't. I can, however, make some damn nice ones out of vinyl or digital prints or create a dimensional sign that someone else can finish to my specs. To some on here that means I'm not really a sign person. I am. Painted signs are the beauty of our business and there are only a few that get the privilege of making their living doing only them. But the times... they are a changin' The cost of entry into this business is relatively low. So we have a choice. We can teach those that are going to do the work anyway. Or we can be high-faluting asses that don't want to share our "trade secrets" with the new guys. Newflash... with YouTube and tutorials there are very little "trade secrets" any more.

I try to be nice in my replies unless you are an obvious troll and then you might see insta-bitch rear her ugly head. But in my very humble opinion, this place is not a nice place anymore. That's why I rarely log in or come here. I quoted equippaint because I agree with him 100%. It's not the newbies that will take this place down.

 

[Gino]

In the beginning of this thread, as well as maybe over the last few years, as Bigdawg mentioned this has been becoming a problem. The questions here are not how well does one pay attention to the questions or answers. It's not who came first.... the newcomers or the old-timer. It's not who is nice or who is a b!tch. It seems to have come down to who deserves help or not.

Not everyone is created equal, also as Bigdawg mentioned. Some have fantastic eye hand coordination and what they see, they can draw or paint. Some can letter up a truck with relatively no guide lines and still look perfect, while others can do it with software and/or other tools. So that's not it, either.

It's the attitude of coming here and demanding help and when it's given to them, they throw it back in your face, if it's not what they want to hear. I don't care if someone has 2 days under their belt or 22 years. The real question is.....

• Have they honestly tried to do this [whatever the question is] ??
• What have they done to help themselves ??
• Are they willing to learn or just wanna a quick fix ??
• Have they tried to improve themselves ??
• Can they ask a question without being too vague ??

There was a member here a long time ago, who was a novice and didn't take criticism very well, but he kept at it and when people handed out sh!t, he handed it right back, but he had a certain amount of respect for those who knew. He rarely comes around anymore, but my hat is off to him as he kept on keeping on.

​

As for Doomsday, it's a combination of hacks, hobbyists, intolerant people and just plain old @ssholes of all sorts. Now is our chance to help make it better and stop complaining all the time. Join in the discussion and stop citing all the negatives and let's try to fix our village. Before ya know it, there won't be many around to ask, so you will be on your own, if you're not careful.

 

[Johnny Best]

To me it is like your 3 year old asks you a question about something and after you give him or her an answer they then proceed to ask "why",
Then you proceed to give them another answer and you get another "why". That's when you start to get deep into absurdity in your answers but you still get the "why" reply. Then you start to ignore and try to dirvert the subject to something else.
Maybe some of these people never had a decent upbringing and their childhood was taken up with "why" did I get this loser for a parent.
When they show up here thinking they found a family who will treat them all warm and fuzzy and they get a response they take as a personel
thing and that anger is the reaction you get from years of rejection and like some mention "ego".
You ask a stupid question, you get a stupid answer is the motto they need to live by, or stupid is as stupid does.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Gino, I don't contribute enough? Your lying in the forums or not looking at the right profile.

 

[bob]

Bob, Why you gotta use such big words. I was doing good till I got to your post.

Hard to adequately express oneself in monosyllabic snorts and grunts. Nonetheless, in the spirit of beneficence, which words or passages didn't you comprehend? Perhaps these could be restated in more primitive terms.

 

[hcardwell93]

I like the idea of FAQs and Stickies. A gun forum I used to frequent had that feature and I found it immensely valuable. I have spent many many hours on here searching for topics, browsing sub forums and clicking the links in the Similar Threads section and have learned a ton of valuable info.

I would be more than happy to go back and identify those threads I found useful and send them to an admin for a sticky compilation.

 

[signmeup]

I haven't been here for at least 2 years... maybe 3... and I come back and it's the same old crew spouting "wa, wa, wa... the newbies make me sad..."

Be helpful if you want and if they don't appreciate... don't help them anymore. This is a forum. If no one "forums" there isn't much point to the place.

Adrian

 

[spectrum maine]

If it wasn't for the formal training provided here most franchise shops would fail. Its not like their week at corporate covers it.
The biggest lesson they teach at Signarama corporate is to hire experienced help.
Maybe there should be a "Greenhorn" section on here.. Honestly, i have been in signs for 38 years & the internet is a wonderful learning tool. You never stop learning.