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Startup Business QUESTIONS?!

reQ

New Member
Its just another topic "My boss does not pay me much i wanna go on my own"

Do it... learn it hard way what does it mean "owning a business" :)

Good luck!

P.S. People here already told you enough things to think about
 

OldPaint

New Member
wow....you KNOW IT ALL except how do wraps......
AND YOUR AMAZING at doing what you do know)))))
AND 40 HOURS A WEEK FOR 2 YEARS,,,,,,makes me worth more money)))))
and since i cant get PAID what i think iam worth......ILL START MY OWN BUSINESS)))
i laid this out like the DICK & JANE 1st grade book, because
THAT IS HOW YOU ARE THINKING.......like a little kid who cant get his way and his EGO is in contoll of his better judgment!!!!!!!!
BOTTOM LINE .......SON......
2 years in this business AINT SCHIT!!!! graphic design training DONT MAKE YOU A SIGN PERSON!
$15 an hour.........is damn good money for someone with your skill set, and if your getting BE HAPPY.
not enough money??? wait till you own your own shop and get NOTHING FOR 40 HOURS SOMETIMES))))))
spend hours on a design/layot only to have done by some yahoo who works cheaper then you(((((.
iam speaking from the OTHER SIDE of this business, which i was doing for most of my 70 YEARS, when i was young it was part time, at 42.......i decided to open my own business(that was 28 years ago, 1986)and STILL I DIDNT KNOW AS MUCH AS YOU SAY YOU DO)))))))))(in 2 years)
i started in this because i COULD DRAW, MAKE ART, HAD TALENT to do so.
what this business is today......i woulda stayed working as a draftsman or outside sales for NAPA auto parts. hell even today i can make more PER HOUR delivering auto parts then i make at this stuff today))))))
 

James Burke

Being a grandpa is more fun than working
Enough already. In spite of all the negativity, I'm still for the one who dreams...and then does. It's what made this great country what it is. It's what I did ten years ago in spite of the rife competition...and the so-called "better-qualified".

Yes, I made mistakes. Yes, I got bloodied. Yes, I still have boot prints on my arse to prove that I've been there...and done that.

We all start somewhere...and anywhere besides "rock-bottom" (which was where I started) is certainly a hell of a lot better than nothing.

Knock 'em dead, theycallmefolsom. We still live in a country that embraces free enterprise...at least I think we still do, anyway.


JB
 
wow....you KNOW IT ALL except how do wraps......
AND YOUR AMAZING at doing what you do know)))))
AND 40 HOURS A WEEK FOR 2 YEARS,,,,,,makes me worth more money)))))
and since i cant get PAID what i think iam worth......ILL START MY OWN BUSINESS)))
i laid this out like the DICK & JANE 1st grade book, because
THAT IS HOW YOU ARE THINKING.......like a little kid who cant get his way and his EGO is in contoll of his better judgment!!!!!!!!
BOTTOM LINE .......SON......
2 years in this business AINT SCHIT!!!! graphic design training DONT MAKE YOU A SIGN PERSON!
$15 an hour.........is damn good money for someone with your skill set, and if your getting BE HAPPY.
not enough money??? wait till you own your own shop and get NOTHING FOR 40 HOURS SOMETIMES))))))
spend hours on a design/layot only to have done by some yahoo who works cheaper then you(((((.
iam speaking from the OTHER SIDE of this business, which i was doing for most of my 70 YEARS, when i was young it was part time, at 42.......i decided to open my own business(that was 28 years ago, 1986)and STILL I DIDNT KNOW AS MUCH AS YOU SAY YOU DO)))))))))(in 2 years)
i started in this because i COULD DRAW, MAKE ART, HAD TALENT to do so.
what this business is today......i woulda stayed working as a draftsman or outside sales for NAPA auto parts. hell even today i can make more PER HOUR delivering auto parts then i make at this stuff today))))))

Your right, Im not a sign person. Never grew up with people painting windows or lettering on vehicles(I admire them, as its much simpler today with the eraser tool). I am a package designer. I see a vehicle not as a sign but as a package. Like a cereal box, chocolate bar. And just like a vehicle a cereal box has 4 sides, has specific requirements and needs to be tailored to each brand. I think the problem with the sign industry is people like you. Instead of embracing change you hate on it. OOO BOO WHOO ur talent of drawing on cars with a paint brush is not needed anymore. OOO now you have to learn photoshop and illustrator and ur not the expert anymore, ur the amateur.

I have been digging in these forums for a while now. You know what I keep reading THE SAME THING, "In todays sign industry its not like it used to be, back in the 19 century I would have 10 dollars in supplies and make a killing just painting ****". But now you have to have a good website, adword campaigns, computer guys, printers, laminators. Thats just business, things change!!! Dont blame me. Maybe you should rethink ur marketing strategy.

UR TELLING ME AT 70 u still cant even make over 15 dollars an hour. MY friend it is U that has failed. U have failed to change and adjust to the market. U have failed to learn the necessary skills to stay ahead of your competitors.

You know who I am.....I the guy that understands the market, know where its going and willing to learn whats necessary to better myself. Im the guy that puts you out of business and ur the guy that goes on sign forums complaining about THIS GUY taking ur business.
 

James Burke

Being a grandpa is more fun than working
You know who I am....

I'm equal opportunity...so here goes:

That attitude may earn you a coveted place on the school playground, but it won't do a thing for you in business...except cause failure, perhaps. You're going to have days that will make these guys look like a Sunday school teacher, and it might do you well to begin adjusting your taste buds for humble pie.

#24 in this thread is only your sixth post on this forum in just over two days, and you're quickly losing any hopes of gaining future help when the time comes (and it will). That's not good.

Go back to my first post in this thread and get started on your homework...seriously.


JB
 
I'm equal opportunity...so here goes:

That attitude may earn you a coveted place on the school playground, but it won't do a thing for you in business...except cause failure, perhaps. You're going to have days that will make these guys look like a Sunday school teacher, and it might do you well to begin adjusting your taste buds for humble pie.

#24 in this thread is only your sixth post on this forum in just over two days, and you're quickly losing any hopes of gaining future help when the time comes (and it will). That's not good.

Go back to my first post in this thread and get started on your homework...seriously.


JB

OK fair enough. I admit that last part was me just being frustrated with some of the responses. I have already been doing my homework and have been reading plenty of books which include The E Myth revised(story of baking pies), 100$ start up, profit first, small businesses operation.

What i dont appreciate is people putting me in a box like Im some disgruntled employee looking for an easy payout. I enjoyed my job and consider the owner of my previous shop a mentor. Taught me a lot on sales, working with clients among other things. However it got repetitive and I felt I could probably do better. So I decided to soak up everything about this industry and learn as much as possible.

So I left my job to look for other design opportunities. After visiting other shops I noticed they weren't much better than my previous position. SO I thought to myself If there isn't anything better why continue down the same path. After consulting with both my uncle and father(two successful retired small business owners) I decided to dig deeper and bought a handful of business books.

Which brings me to this forum. All I stated was my daily working routine and if I was ready to start a business or what steps I needed to take. ALLl I got was NO NO NO NO NO. Now I did get some advice that I should learn more production.

The problem is most sign shops dont allow you to handle the money, or client communication, signvox software, managing installers, speaking with vendors, inventory etc. Owners dont want there employees to know everything about THERE business. If I was a owner I sure wouldn't want my employees to know how much sales we did in a month, or control of pricing, or the hours it takes for the design, or where the job came from, or how much the material costs, or our vendors and suppliers. I was lucky enough to literally get a complete insight to everything.

So how is getting a job at another business which clearly wouldn't allow me to control the amount of work like my previous position,,, be better. After a year of working I would most likely loose alot of the knowledge I previously learned.

So i feel the next logical step is to just own the business.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I, for one, wish you all the luck in the world in your conquest...... and then some.

It's just that you are sending up so many red flags, it astounds some of us, p!sses others off and makes still yet others, envious. Should you try this venture, like mentioned, be sure to have at least 6 months of reserves, cause you're gonna need it.

When I came home and announced I was gonna go into business, all my family and relatives said I was nuts. How are you gonna survive after you go through your friends and relatives as customers ?? Back then, most sign people made a sign or two, lettered a truck or storefront window and never saw that customer for another 10 years. Yes, it was different, but we still moved forward.

Like I stated, more than ambition and atitude, you need some business tactics in place first. You also need to save your money and stop buying silly books. You roll with the punches and when you're knocked down or looking for a job, ya just need to keep positive and not let your inner feelings show through, like you did in this thread. Future customers will see right through that and will go elsewhere with someone with confidence. Here, you got fed up within minutes of looking for help........ with supposedly your peers. You've managed to alienate yourself from 1/2 the pack in no time at all...... becuase of a bad temper, you exhibit. Lose it, or go down in flames.

I made a bunch of signs years ago for people which read...... Teenagers !! Leave home now, while you still know everything !! It was a big seller years ago. Today, I guess that would be considered child cruelty, but think about it, please.

Good luck.............
 
Maybe what would work best for you, is to purchase a sign shop that you can keep some of the employees and start to run it the way you want it, and as the boss the installers would have to show you how to do it
 

rossmosh

New Member
I agree with the general consensus that it's premature to open your own shop unless you're working with someone more experienced. I'm not saying you can't do it and be successful. There are many people in this world that have started businesses and just continued to learn and evolve while on the job and have turned out to be great successes. My gut says you'd be better off working another year and gaining more experience, specifically hands on experience.

I don't agree with the idea that you're a $10-12/hr employee. Glassdoor specifically says the average salary in LA for a graphic designer is about 45k. Right now, you're about 15k under the market price. As someone new to the industry and straight out of school, that's even lower than expected. Theoretically, you should be making $18-20/hr depending on benefits, OT, ect ect ect. You should probably ask for a raise to get you up to where you "should" be. Then take that extra cash and throw it in a savings account and don't touch it. This is how you build a savings to start a new business.

1. I completely agree, which is why I have put out an ad for vehicle wrap installers and have already received 4 replies in 2 days. I also plan on taking the oracle class.
- I wanted to learn how to wrap however most business owners I interviewed with dont want you to learn.
(a) There friends are the wrappers and dont want you to take there job.
(b) The wrappers themselves dont want to teach you because then you will take there job.(this was my problem at my previous position)

2. How much funding would it take?
- If i am going door-to-door how can I not get paying jobs?
- How many sign shops go door to door?
- What percentage just sit there and wait for people to call/walk in?

3. Yes it would cost more in the end but you can always pay it off earlier if you business is making money right.

1. Taking the class is obviously a great first step. I still feel strongly you need more hands on experience. First you need to get into a position to learn how to wrap. That's on you to make it work. You may have to do it for free off hours for the boss. Whatever it takes. I also think you need to set goals. After 10 vans, 5 trailers, and 5 pickups you're ready to go out on your own. That might not even be a enough but you'll know better after you reach that goal.

2. You have rent, insurance, internet, phone, electrical, and taxes to pay every month. I can't imagine that being less than $3000/mo in LA. So you need $30k in the bank just to cover that for a while. Then you need to actually invest cash into your building with supplies, fixtures, computers, ect. That's $5k easily. Then you need to look at equipment. I actually agree with most that you should outsource your printing. So let's assume you just need general tools and maybe a "basic" vinyl plotter. So again, let's just say $5k. So we're up to $40k to start your business. Now you need money to live. You have to assume your first 6-12 months you may not even cover business expenses. I'd say you need 6 months of money saved up that you can live off. Based on what you've said you made, that's another $20k roughly. So if you don't have $60k in the bank, or something like it, you shouldn't open a new business. And honestly, I may be being a conservative. You should really have another $10-15k of working capital.

Now to be clear, there are exceptions to every rule. You could open your business with $10k in the bank and hit a home run. You find a great client right off the bat and you start off great. That does happen. Most people trudge through the first 12-18 months. They barely make money and it is what it is. It's part of the process of starting a new business.

3. It's unrealistic to expect to pay off your machines early. The first 18 months, you'll be lucky to pay yourself. I agree with the idea, if you need a machine, you need it and you have to buy it even if you're short on capital. I'd personally recommend outsourcing. It seems common enough in this industry and it will save you a ton of money. You're already clearly short on starting capital so why make life even more complicated? If you do well, you can always buy your own printer later.
 

OldPaint

New Member
Your right, Im not a sign person. Never grew up with people painting windows or lettering on vehicles(I admire them, as its much simpler today with the eraser tool). I am a package designer. I see a vehicle not as a sign but as a package. Like a cereal box, chocolate bar. And just like a vehicle a cereal box has 4 sides, has specific requirements and needs to be tailored to each brand. I think the problem with the sign industry is people like you. Instead of embracing change you hate on it. OOO BOO WHOO ur talent of drawing on cars with a paint brush is not needed anymore. OOO now you have to learn photoshop and illustrator and ur not the expert anymore, ur the amateur.

I have been digging in these forums for a while now. You know what I keep reading THE SAME THING, "In todays sign industry its not like it used to be, back in the 19 century I would have 10 dollars in supplies and make a killing just painting ****". But now you have to have a good website, adword campaigns, computer guys, printers, laminators. Thats just business, things change!!! Dont blame me. Maybe you should rethink ur marketing strategy.

UR TELLING ME AT 70 u still cant even make over 15 dollars an hour. MY friend it is U that has failed. U have failed to change and adjust to the market. U have failed to learn the necessary skills to stay ahead of your competitors.

You know who I am.....I the guy that understands the market, know where its going and willing to learn whats necessary to better myself. Im the guy that puts you out of business and ur the guy that goes on sign forums complaining about THIS GUY taking ur business.
YOU........really need an attitude adjustment. like other have said your going nowhere with the one you have.
YOU ARE YOUR OWN WORST ENEMY))))
and you cant extract information being given to you, with attacking the giver, can i say your dumber then a rock???? hurt youre feelings??? you bring it on yourself.
now to fill you in..........on a few things that you made foolish assumptions about.
1. i didnt say i was making $15 an hour.........for you thats good money))))is what i said.
2. like i said ........YOURE EGO is in control of your life, how you perceive YOU......is not what other do. in psychological jargon, you have delusions of grandeur)))))))
3. with 2-3 years,... you know it all........all i can say is.... BOY, you got a lot to learn))))
4.now you want tell me why you assume all the dumb schit you did about me??? is it to make you feel better bout you???? hummmmmmmmmmm
to correct you on those misconceptions you have:
YES IAM 70.........YES i can draw, paint, and many other things that require some modicum of TALENT, of which i gather...... YOU HAVE NONE.......judging from your diatribes here.
5. I BUILD AND REPAIR COMPUTERS))))))) have done this since 1990))))
6. as for running computer programs....hummmmm let me see, this may take a while, illy, photoshop, casmate, sign wizard, sign lab, flexi, gerber , letter art, pro-cut, co-cut, vinyl express. and auto cad)))
OH and corel. since version 3.0. i am the guy who figured out how to make corel a vinyl cutting program 1992)))))))) i have run a successful full time sign business(based on my artistic ability)since 1986))))))
i am also a carpenter, plumber , electrician, draftman, and have POTTERY SHOP. yes i throw on a wheel, and hand build. was the art profs assistant at PENN STATE........when i attended there in the 70's.
so now do you see ..............how silly you post has made you???
but i can forgive you...........as it says in the bible.....forgive them, for they know not what they do))))))))))
good luck in getting a good life...........and more per hour))))
 

truckgraphics

New Member
OK fair enough. I admit that last part was me just being frustrated with some of the responses. I have already been doing my homework and have been reading plenty of books which include The E Myth revised(story of baking pies), 100$ start up, profit first, small businesses operation.

What i dont appreciate is people putting me in a box like Im some disgruntled employee looking for an easy payout. I enjoyed my job and consider the owner of my previous shop a mentor. Taught me a lot on sales, working with clients among other things. However it got repetitive and I felt I could probably do better. So I decided to soak up everything about this industry and learn as much as possible.....

So i feel the next logical step is to just own the business.

I am sure you have the skills, or can gain the skills to run a sign or wrap shop.

Not only that, you know the sign/wrap business, even though you may or may not know everything about the business.

So, if you want to start a business, do it.

Now, here is my advice:

Starting, running and most importantly, growing a business takes different skills that running a sign/wrap shop.

And the most important thing you need to get started is a business plan. Now, a lot of folks will tell you that the plan allows you to figure out your costs of doing business - rent, materials, employees, marketing, etc. True.

But here are two questions you should ask and try to answer in your plan:

1) How can I get into and stay in business with the money available to me? For example, operating a full service shop with printer/cutter/laminator, trucks, etc. will cost you a lot more to get started than starting a wrap color change business. And the cliff is pretty steep if you fail with a business that starts on a grander scale. In a few months, you could easily find yourself looking at a lease on a shop and equipment you can't afford and/or a mess of expensive machines you can only sell for pennies or at best dimes on the dollar. On the other hand, you might find the small shop can't expand past a certain point....Which leads to the second question you should ask....

2) MOST IMPORTANT: How much money (salary and profit) do I want/need to make and how many hours a week will I have to work to make that sort of living for myself. Everyone who starts a business assumes they will work 18 hour days to get started. But that will get old. Your goal should be to make decent (or indecent !) money and control your destiny. How will you organize your business to reach your goals?

Finally, that business plan is a living document. Your business and goals will always be changing. With luck that business plan will launch you into a business that keeps food on the table. But your goal should be to do better than just put food on the table. (Most Economics books will tell you: The goal of the chief executive - you - is to maximize profits.) Otherwise, just go to work for someone else.

Don't go into this business to be a sign man. Go into the sign business to be a business man (or woman).

Now get out there !
 

David Wright

New Member
The major thing here is you are talking about going from an employee to self employed.
I don't care what skills, degrees or special insights you have but that alone will educate you in the way Gino described the know it all teenager who moves out on his own.

Boy the humbling experience you will have and just like the teenager who realizes how much smarter their parents have become since he moved out.

I await more stories to come from your personal saga.
Yes, for most people in this business, the only way to make a decent wage is on your own.
 

bold_will_hold

New Member
similar spot

I have been lurking for awhile here looking at thread just like this and feel I can help the OP alittle. I understand how you feel. I share similar goals with you. I have been in this industry for over 12+ years. I have worked at multiple shops. If you have the capitol to dive right in then go for it, Its going to be hard and you may loose all the money you saved to invest in your business but hopefully it will eventually work out. If you do not have money saved I would go work at another shop. They may not let you have your hand in every aspect of the business but I can tell you from experience every shop operates differently and opportunity to learn things you wouldn't somewhere else. I have worked from the bottom up cuts, painting, installs then vinyl, then design and printing, & finally sales and quoting side of things. My patience is running thin with my current job. I am getting older. I have seen two business change hand to owners that had no experience but simply deep pockets and a need to buy a successful and profitable business. I thankfully have a good head on my shoulders now, grin my teeth put on the smile and do my job. I can put my emotions aside and think logically about the future. Saving money and starting my business on the side, trying to create a launching platform and gain customers. I have set career goals and will eventually have enough capital to dive in and just go for it. My suggestion to you is to go get another job at a shop, gain as much knowledge as you can meanwhile saving for your future plans. You will know when the time is right, it takes alot of work and maybe a year from now you will change your whole idea of what you want your future to be, who knows. A good piece on advice I found online is called "the tarzan effect" basically don't let go of one branch till the next branch can support your weight. cheers "insert beer icon"
 
Thank You!

I want to first thank all the replies whether they where good or bad. Not sure why some of you got so angry. Anyways, I think this thread has become very valuable for people in my situation.

As far as cost, I have started a rough business plan which will soon become more detailed as I calculate exact cost of leasing, rent, insurance ect.

@rossmosh 1. I think thats a great idea setting a goal for for how many vehicles I wrap, then saying "ok im ready now".

I think I can definitely benefit from joining another business for another year(even though I wont nearly have as much control). Although its tough to save when ur not making much from pay and you live in California. I see many people talk about saving for years to open up there own shop but because of the low pay working in the sign industry it takes forever(which is a problem) and eventually dont do it. I almost feel its a now or never moment(especially if you have people willing to invest)

Also how do employers feel about you working at there sign shop then quieting and opening one in the same city? I can see some bad taste in people mouths.

Unfortunately I dont have experience with outsourcing. Our shop printed in house and never printed for other people. My question is what happens when things go wrong with the prints(wrong colors, head scratches, ect) and you have an install appointment. Or if something happens during install and you need to reprint(of course now I have to pay for reprints). We had many customers that asked us if we printed in house,,,, we would have lost some great business if we told them NO.
 

greysquirrel

New Member
If it's a startup...look to GFP for a laminator and go with the HPL110...you will save a few thousand dollars also comes with a rip in the box...not ideal but it will get you from a-b. If your business grows...you ca convert your 110 to a 310...very easy...only difference between the two is the 785ml ink cartridges...

Your budget should work...especially if you start as a home business...if you need design help, use freelancers...
wanna get your feet wet with installing vehicle wraps...hire a firm to do them for you...most of them will let you watch and ask questions...then practice, practice practice...
 

JMPrinting

New Member
1) Gather up what all your expenses would be and add 25%

2) Tell them you print in house, they don't need to know.

3) Don't expect to pay yourself by the hour, be prepared to not make squat opening up, it's gonna be rough to start. People want to make sure you will stick around and not a flake, that's gonna take 2-3 years
 

rossmosh

New Member
I want to first thank all the replies whether they where good or bad. Not sure why some of you got so angry. Anyways, I think this thread has become very valuable for people in my situation.

As far as cost, I have started a rough business plan which will soon become more detailed as I calculate exact cost of leasing, rent, insurance ect.

@rossmosh 1. I think thats a great idea setting a goal for for how many vehicles I wrap, then saying "ok im ready now".

I think I can definitely benefit from joining another business for another year(even though I wont nearly have as much control). Although its tough to save when ur not making much from pay and you live in California. I see many people talk about saving for years to open up there own shop but because of the low pay working in the sign industry it takes forever(which is a problem) and eventually dont do it. I almost feel its a now or never moment(especially if you have people willing to invest)

Also how do employers feel about you working at there sign shop then quieting and opening one in the same city? I can see some bad taste in people mouths.

Unfortunately I dont have experience with outsourcing. Our shop printed in house and never printed for other people. My question is what happens when things go wrong with the prints(wrong colors, head scratches, ect) and you have an install appointment. Or if something happens during install and you need to reprint(of course now I have to pay for reprints). We had many customers that asked us if we printed in house,,,, we would have lost some great business if we told them NO.

On this site, like most forums, some people are more harsh than others. You may catch someone on a bad day. You might just rub some posters the wrong way. The reality is, your approach to this is a bit backwards for most people, especially those established in the industry. You have to realize you don't have much experience and to suggest you know the sign business is a joke. 1 year in any industry is not much. It's important for you to recognize this. The other issue is how new businesses effect the market. Most new businesses start off by undercutting prices. You charge $5 so I'll charge $4.50. So now I'm essentially forced to drop my price just to seem like I'm not ripping people off. The second issue is the standard of work you do. You might not know what you're doing and do a poor job wrapping the car. I might be very competent and put out industry standard quality wraps every time. So now you're hurting the industry and hurting my pocket. Doesn't sound so great does it?

As for putting savings away, you have to figure out how you're going to do it. Get a second job. Go on Etsy or Fiverr and do design jobs. Contact sign businesses around the US and offer design services for wraps. Do something. You have a skillset. Use it. If you make friends with a shop that does wraps, maybe they'll bring you out for a week to train you to do some wraps for some free design work. There are options out there.

No one wants you to leave their company and start their own, but it happens. Some are bitter about it and some aren't. In my opinion, the only time you're doing something wrong is if you poach their clients or speak poorly about them. If you quit and poach my clients, I'm not going to be happy.

Outsourcing is like anything else. You have to find good people to work with. Most people just want to do the right thing. Find someone you can work with. There are vendors on this site and in trade magazines. You should be able to find someone to work with. If they make a mistake, they should stand behind their work. If you make a mistake, you're going to have to pay for it. As for telling the customer you have a printer or not, that's on you. I've known people to lie and tell customers they do all the work in house when they don't. It's none of the customer's business how you get your work done as long as you do it on time and on budget and the quality is good.
 
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