Summa S2T 140 consistently poor print/cut

[kffernandez]

hi all!

i bought a new summa S2T 140 a few months back, and have only recently tried its print/cut feature using Opos X/ Opos XY. I have only heard of rave reviews so far for Summa, so i am at a loss why i am experiencing accuracy issues with it.

Description of the problem: four corners and first row of cuts are cut pretty much perfectly. but the cuts for the middle part, incrementally shifts upward. with the worst cuts are consistently found in the uppermost/center part.

Settings:
Software used: Win7-64/ Adobe Illustrator CC / Winplot plugin for AI
Cutter: Summa S2T 140 / Tangential blade / knife pressure: 100gf / velocity: 700 mm/s / OPOS XY / OPOS X/ 4 rollers used - evenly spaced
media: 54" width rolls - various generic printable vinyl / Avery MPI 3000 - all produced the same result
Printer: Roland SC-540 / production manager 8.6 - i have checked the output, the lines are straight from end to end. no bowing whatsoever of the prints.

i have attached an image that basically illustrates what happens when i cut. the red line is where the summa cuts, and the black lines are where it is supposed to cut in the first place. please note that when i instructed winplot to cut out the registration marks, they were all pretty much spot on. with very minimal deviation. the size of the sample print/cut is 52" width and 32" high. increasing the height of the print will also increase the deviation of the cuts as it goes up. for this 32" high print, the vertical shift at the worst part is at 1/16 of an inch. pls note that there is no horizontal shift at all. only vertical.

if anybody has an idea on what is wrong with the machine/the user, i would really appreciate any help. i am the first summa customer of the local distributor, and the techs are completely untrained in troubleshooting as of now.

thanks in advance!

edit: it appears that i am not allowed to attached high resolution images. in case you want to see the sample image, please send me a pm, and i will email you the high res file.

kelly

 

[Bly]

That must be disappointing to say the least. The S2T is a great cutter.
I can't really tell the issue from the image but we sometimes had a problem with files cutting on our Summacut.
The cuts would bow upwards towards the centre.
I tried several things, not sure what the problem was but it went away.
I made sure the version of Winplot was the latest, updated firmware and saved the cut file in various .ai versions.
Not sure if it was when I stepped and repeated in Illy too - I tended to flatten that effect before saving for cutting.
Good luck.

 

[kffernandez]

The cuts would bow upwards towards the centre.

that is exactly what i am experiencing. but with me, it's very repeatable.
knowing that i bought a great product, and it's just not working for me, is incredibly frustrating.

kelly

 

[FrankW]

- Have you done an OPOS calibration? You will find that in the OPOS-Menu. It's easy: load a black vinyl with white backing in the plotter. Start calibration, cutter will cut a rectangle, weed that rectangle, press enter ... the plotter will scan the rectangle and will calibrate itself automatically.

- Have the markers sharp edges?

- Do you cut with low pressure on the outer pinch rollers? If yes, don't do that.

 

[Tizz]

That is disappointing to hear. From all of the reviews I've read they are one of the best cutters on the market.
I don't own one myself but am planning on getting one.

Is there a possibility it may be the printer thats causing this?
It is a new cutter and the printer is older.
Have you measured the printed lines horizontally and vertically and do they match the file you created? Can it be a pinch roller tension towards the centre of the media?
Keen to find out what's causing this.

 

[kffernandez]

- Have you done an OPOS calibration?

the opos calibration was done when the machine arrived just a few months back. and like i mentioned earlier, i believe the registration marks were read correctly. since they were cut precisely by summa. nonetheless, i will do the calibration again. in my next round of testing.

- Have the markers sharp edges?

if you mean the registration marks, they look like your typical small squares. with sharp corners as expected.

- Do you cut with low pressure on the outer pinch rollers? If yes, don't do that.

nope. i've never had a need to use low pressure so far.

kelly

 

[kffernandez]

Is there a possibility it may be the printer thats causing this?
It is a new cutter and the printer is older.
Have you measured the printed lines horizontally and vertically and do they match the file you created? Can it be a pinch roller tension towards the centre of the media?

that is one of the first things i checked. since it is indeed an older printer. for my test file, i printed out rectangles, and used the same file for cutting. before i cut them, i used a ruler to make sure that the lines were indeed straight [vertically + horzontally] from end to end using a long ruler. the "bowing" effect towards the center still occurred.

the one thing i cannot completely discount is the possibility of the actual media being warped, though it seemed occularly flat in my workshop table, as well as while on the summa.

kelly

 

[letterman7]

So it's happening on the feed side. Did you check that the registration marks are all equidistant across the print (lengthwise)? The cutter will only cut in accordance to the reg marks - if they wander 1/16" due to "print stretch", the cutter will do the same. In the grand scheme of things, 1/16" out on an older plotter isn't bad. Mine is 18 years old and sometimes has similar issues on long plots.

 

[kffernandez]

So it's happening on the feed side. Did you check that the registration marks are all equidistant across the print (lengthwise)? The cutter will only cut in accordance to the reg marks - if they wander 1/16" due to "print stretch", the cutter will do the same. In the grand scheme of things, 1/16" out on an older plotter isn't bad. Mine is 18 years old and sometimes has similar issues on long plots.

yes. it is happening on the feed side. but only the center part in particular. the left and right side cuts are pretty much perfect. [all four corner's cuts are perfect]
i just measured the registration marks, and they are equidistant for both vertical and horizontal measurements. [four corners]


kelly

 

[TomK]

hi all!

i bought a new summa S2T 140 a few months back, and have only recently tried its print/cut feature using Opos X/ Opos XY. I have only heard of rave reviews so far for Summa, so i am at a loss why i am experiencing accuracy issues with it.

Description of the problem: four corners and first row of cuts are cut pretty much perfectly. but the cuts for the middle part, incrementally shifts upward. with the worst cuts are consistently found in the uppermost/center part.

Settings:
Software used: Win7-64/ Adobe Illustrator CC / Winplot plugin for AI
Cutter: Summa S2T 140 / Tangential blade / knife pressure: 100gf / velocity: 700 mm/s / OPOS XY / OPOS X/ 4 rollers used - evenly spaced
media: 54" width rolls - various generic printable vinyl / Avery MPI 3000 - all produced the same result
Printer: Roland SC-540 / production manager 8.6 - i have checked the output, the lines are straight from end to end. no bowing whatsoever of the prints.

i have attached an image that basically illustrates what happens when i cut. the red line is where the summa cuts, and the black lines are where it is supposed to cut in the first place. please note that when i instructed winplot to cut out the registration marks, they were all pretty much spot on. with very minimal deviation. the size of the sample print/cut is 52" width and 32" high. increasing the height of the print will also increase the deviation of the cuts as it goes up. for this 32" high print, the vertical shift at the worst part is at 1/16 of an inch. pls note that there is no horizontal shift at all. only vertical.

if anybody has an idea on what is wrong with the machine/the user, i would really appreciate any help. i am the first summa customer of the local distributor, and the techs are completely untrained in troubleshooting as of now.

thanks in advance!

edit: it appears that i am not allowed to attached high resolution images. in case you want to see the sample image, please send me a pm, and i will email you the high res file.

kelly

I've had the same problem, worked with Summa and Flexi for a few weeks, never really got it resolved.

Are you seeing this on cut only vinyl or stuff you are printing and than cutting?

I see it on anything I put through my HP 300 Latex machine, it is worse on some materials, like Oracal 3628 vs Briteline 5651. There is another thread on here about it, someone else was having the same problem, they set something on their substrate profile to account for the heat on the Latex machines and what it was doing to the material. I have not tried it yet, for now I just print/cut one row at a time and do multiple jobs, takes a bit longer overall, but my cuts aren't messed up. BTW, I am cutting very small stickers, .5" to 1.5", if I go more than 1 row deep, the output is worthless.

I'll search for the other thread and if I find it I'll update my post.

Keep me updated, I'd love to find an answer for this!

 

[TomK]

I've had the same problem, worked with Summa and Flexi for a few weeks, never really got it resolved.

Are you seeing this on cut only vinyl or stuff you are printing and than cutting?

I see it on anything I put through my HP 300 Latex machine, it is worse on some materials, like Oracal 3628 vs Briteline 5651. There is another thread on here about it, someone else was having the same problem, they set something on their substrate profile to account for the heat on the Latex machines and what it was doing to the material. I have not tried it yet, for now I just print/cut one row at a time and do multiple jobs, takes a bit longer overall, but my cuts aren't messed up. BTW, I am cutting very small stickers, .5" to 1.5", if I go more than 1 row deep, the output is worthless.

I'll search for the other thread and if I find it I'll update my post.

Keep me updated, I'd love to find an answer for this!

Here are the 2 links I was talking about. The HP one mention's the L25500, have not checked to see if that setting is on the HP 300 series.

http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?133883-HP-Latex-570-vs-Roland-EJ&p=1302750#post1302750


http://h20564.www2.hp.com/hpsc/doc/public/display?docId=emr_na-c02757539

 

[kffernandez]

Are you seeing this on cut only vinyl or stuff you are printing and than cutting?

I see it on anything I put through my HP 300 Latex machine, it is worse on some materials, like Oracal 3628 vs Briteline 5651.
Keep me updated, I'd love to find an answer for this!

i cannot confirm if it is happening with just plain vinyl. since it's only glaringly obvious with print and cut.
i actually have an HP Latex 310. and i know that it has its own bowing problem. i intentionally didn't mention it in my original post, nor used it in my tests to isolate the issue for now. if i get to find the fix for this under my roland/summa configuration, i will then start working on my latex using the commonly known fix of straightness optimization + Opos XY. will update you if i get that far.

kelly

 

[FrankW]

yes. it is happening on the feed side. but only the center part in particular. the left and right side cuts are pretty much perfect. [all four corner's cuts are perfect]
i just measured the registration marks, and they are equidistant for both vertical and horizontal measurements. [four corners]

Do you use OPOS XY for this prints too?

 

[ProPDF]

I suggest sitting down and reading the manual completely on the Summa cutter a few times. We have had our tracking issues with them but not this issue. Out of the box Summa could have put more pinch rollers on the machines instead of making you cop out $300usd+ per pinch roller to add on after you drop 10k on a cutter........ then realize it won't track thick material correctly. You need to learn how to calibrate every aspect of the machine yourself to troubleshoot properly. Also going back to your Roland make sure that your pinch rollers on it are in perfect shape after that make sure your heat is not too high on the roland as it will cause ripples in the material on startup. If you have to have the heat really high on the SC540 we usually have to re-lift the lever after proper temperature has been achieved to level the material back out again.

 

[kffernandez]

Do you use OPOS XY for this prints too?

i have used both OPOS X and OPOS XY. both have shown similar [but not exactly the same] results.

 

[SightLine]

Another thought. Why are you using Winplot if you have Flexi? That could also be some of the issue - two different programs to run one job when Flexi can do all of it. We run our Mimaki's and Summa totally under Flexi. We just add the contour cuts within Flexi, send the print job, then the cut job sits in Production Manager on hold until we are ready to load the printed job on the cutter. Then when that is ready we send the cut job, the Summa find the marks and cuts the job. No problems, even on very long runs with heavier materials like an 18 foot long logo on ultra expensive 3M 680 48" reflective. Granted, on something like that we do put the material on a core and use the core holders, and slow the cutter down some just to be sure we do not screw up a $400 piece of material... Also no problem on longer runs of regular print vinyl as well and we have not added any extra pinch rollers. Our Summa is the previous version though but its basically the same machine - S160T instead of a T2...

 

[kffernandez]

I suggest sitting down and reading the manual completely on the Summa cutter a few times.

this is actually a really good suggestion. i have read the manual a few times. but admittedly, i still don't understand every aspect of it. i have done the basic calibrations, and feel that i have done enough for now. but with regards to the ideal way to load, and best way to align prints, i feel that i am still lacking in understanding how it should be done. that's why i am hoping that the answer to my problem is a simple configuration or alignment setting that somebody here can point out.

btw, i have also started to notice that my summa might have some problem in tracking thick materials. i did a few rolls of frosted stickers that were about 130" long each panel, and it slightly tracked a few times with panelling option on.

Also going back to your Roland make sure that your pinch rollers on it are in perfect shape after that make sure your heat is not too high on the roland as it will cause ripples in the material on startup. If you have to have the heat really high on the SC540 we usually have to re-lift the lever after proper temperature has been achieved to level the material back out again.

my pinch rollers are about a year old, and seem to be ok. i do plan on printing my next test batch with the heat off. personally, i don't think heat is a problem since my setting is only at 44C. but it's still worth a try. - like you, i also re-lift the lever to smoothen the media out, when needed. leaving it idle for some time stretches the media.

kelly

 

[kffernandez]

Another thought. Why are you using Winplot if you have Flexi? That could also be some of the issue - two different programs to run one job when Flexi can do all of it. We run our Mimaki's and Summa totally under Flexi. We just add the contour cuts within Flexi, send the print job, then the cut job sits in Production Manager on hold until we are ready to load the printed job on the cutter. Then when that is ready we send the cut job, the Summa find the marks and cuts the job.

your setup is actually what i hope to go with in the future. i still haven't looked into flexi that much yet tho, since i didn't see the summa marks in the list of pre-defined registrations. i have an old version, so i don't really expect the drivers to be available out of the box.

also, i find it easier to use the software that came with the machine in order to minimize finger pointing when the tech arrives.


kelly

 

[AF]

Do a length calibration. Also slow the feed and cut speed to eliminate material slickness and mass from the equation.

I suspect your workflow is introducing problems. Use different software. Not all software combinations will play nice together.

if you are using your rip to set up your print and cut files, it could be that your rip is buggy. I have seen it firsthand.

 

[ProPDF]

+1 for trying flexi 12 also. They are on the subscription model per month cancel anytime so no huge upfront cost. They finally got the barcode option working with the summa too which is a cool feature.