Tariffs

[ProPDF]

Yup! It's called an ePacket. They could sell an item cheaper then what I could ship it for. Killed us on selling small stuff but in return I got MY stuff cheaper so I duno if it worked out in the end or not.[/QUOTE

The question was and is tariffs "collected" from whom?

Yeah, what's a LOSS of $136 BILLION in GDP among friends? And an ADDED $170 BILLION in costs passed onto consumers. No math major here, but that would appear to be a $306 BILLION double whammy being forced upon U.S. businesses and consumers.

Peanuts. That kind of chump change didn't impact any workers, their jobs, etc.

Notice something about September 1st 2019, the day the tariffs were imposed? 1usd to approximately 7.17rmb. Look at the chart. The Chinese are paying. The tariffs are just one aspect of an overall market where all the players are plotting for their best position. We have allowed anyone to dump their goods here for next to nothing while American businesses are not extended the same option by other countries. Want to import something into the US via airmail? $800 before it gets taxed....want to import something into China via airmail? If the value is over $7 it gets taxed %15-%31 or more depending on classification. It sounds strange for those glued to corporate news but tariffs if used properly can be a good negotiating tool with little to no cost really added to the consumer. In fact American products can become more competitive if the other countries agree to lower their tariffs. Imagine if American businesses had as easy access to the billions of Chinese consumers in China like their factories have access to American end consumers. The Chinese will jump on planes out of Shanghai to LAX come buy luxury goods and fly back home and still save money verse ordering from their smartphone from the comforts of their own home.

Here is the list of the maximum amount of usd value before duties and taxes are applied per country.
https://www.zhenhub.com/2018/05/15/customs-duty-de-minimis-values-by-country/

 

[ikarasu]

Tarrifs are a gamble. You're pretty much playing chicken and hoping the other country will cave first - They don't always work, and it's impossible to know in the short term if it's a benefit, or if it just made things worst.

That works in either direction - tariffs almost always have short term losses - USA farmers are getting impacted pretty hard by them right now...theres been so many bailouts, and billions spent on additional subsidies to try to keep up, but it's still hurting them a lot. So while it may not look like USA is paying for the tariffs, there are so many indirect ways that aren't charted/calculated that they're paying for it.

It sucks, but no one said it'd be easy. China has become a global powerhouse, they're dipping their fingers into everything - They've bought up so much land and companies in almost every country that they hold so much political influence and power it's dangerous. The whole free HK Thing... you can see many companies are willing to sell out for a chance at some of that sweet Chinese cash.

So yes - Americans are paying for tariffs. You don't come out of a war with zero losses - That doesn't mean tariffs are bad though. Even if it costs billions and billions, if the end result is China has a little less push-around power, it's worth it.

China has always played the long game, where as most politicians are up for re-election every 4 years... So they're in it for short term gain, long term loss so they can be re-elected - Have you ever noticed EVERY single president declares they inherited a mess of an economy, but theyll fix it? And again, it's short term gain... but at the end of the 4 years, long term loss, and its down the rabbit hole we go repeating it over and over.

I don't agree with 90% of the stuff trump does, but this is one of the few I do agree with - Sometimes a bit of sacrificing is worth it in the long run. He was dumb to start trade wars on multiple fronts though - He's made "enemies" doing so (Calling Canada a national security threat just so he can tariff lumber/aluminum... one of your closest allies, that wasn't smart) now he's fighting multiple battles instead of having everyone band together and be united against a common enemy.

 

[ams]

Tariffs don't bother me.

 

[Jeremiah]

Here in my part of the USA I have been making signs from 8 am to 10;30 pm all week . No time to waste to discuss politics.

 

[TimToad]

That was their projection, and it seems they were wrong.

View attachment 144860

There are multiple sources that don't agree with your dismissal of the projections as well as the impacts on manufacturing growth and "good paying, middle class" job creation. The December jobs report showed ANOTHER month of recession for manufacturing and manufacturing job growth, so the robust growth proclamations the writer of your source article opined are being contradicted by statistical data as are the 3-4% GDP growth promised before the 2016 election that have NOT occurred during the last 3 years. Those inflated growth projections were supposed to pay for the $1.5 trillion tax giveaway to the wealthy and corporations and in their absence tax revenues are down and both the deficit and national debt have risen profoundly. In a healthy economy that kind of debt accumulation and dropping tax revenue is unheard of.

Even with the relaxation of some tariffs, our exports are still down almost 25% since they were initiated and have not rebounded.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-46-billion-to-date-data-shows-idUSKBN1Z8222

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/us-industrial-production-slumps-in-second-quarter-2019-07-16

 

[TimToad]

Tariffs don't bother me.

You like paying more for things and having disruption in backbone industries?

These 800+ families in just one state probably had hoped for a better outcome from the imposition of tariffs on their products.

https://www.dairyherd.com/article/w...EwZpKamJq3BbqsHRnDdnua_5Z38BNWBXvcJVovC3kgv6c

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

You really like to Cherry pick your sources don't you? The broader overview is America is better and Stronger than it's ever been, both domestically and abroad. Our GDP is the highest it's ever been, unemployment the lowest, and our speculative markets have set over 70 positive records and 0 Negative this past year. The Euro has fallen to it's lowest vs the dollar almost ever, and every other first world market is failing in comparison to the USA... So why is his policies not working again?

My business is thriving and I have hired 5 new employees and looking to hire 3 more in the near term.

 

[ProPDF]

You like paying more for things and having disruption in backbone industries?

These 800+ families in just one state probably had hoped for a better outcome from the imposition of tariffs on their products.

https://www.dairyherd.com/article/w...EwZpKamJq3BbqsHRnDdnua_5Z38BNWBXvcJVovC3kgv6c

From the chart on your link it looks like it's been downhill since 2003 and never trending upwards. When were the tariffs you are referencing put in place? Honestly asking cause I can't find the correlation to the massive 17yr decline tied directly to dairy tariffs. It looks like a market that was doing what markets do. Did the dairy industry care about people or animals when they were purposely killing over 500,000 cows in an attempt to raise prices on consumers around 2010 (to which they got sued)? No. With the decline of the milk does a body good propaganda that has now been proven false erased from tv and magazine ads along with general market conditions the 800+ farmers knew what was coming and they got sued trying to stop it.

I think a better general argument is to be upset about the tariffs placed on American products by other countries.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

From the chart on your link it looks like it's been downhill since 2003 and never trending upwards. When were the tariffs you are referencing put in place? Honestly asking cause I can't find the correlation to the massive 17yr decline tied directly to dairy tariffs. It looks like a market that was doing what markets do. Did the dairy industry care about people or animals when they were purposely killing over 500,000 cows in an attempt to raise prices on consumers around 2010 (to which they got sued)? No. With the decline of the milk does a body good propaganda that has now been proven false erased from tv and magazine ads along with general market conditions the 800+ farmers knew what was coming and they got sued trying to stop it.

I think a better general argument is to be upset about the tariffs placed on American products by other countries.

It's been years since my family bought milk. My wife likes cashew milk and I like vanilla almond. She wont let us have dairy in the house so I have to turn off GPS on my phone and sneak around town to get bad food and not get caught. Got to delete internet history searches for restruants. Have to stop at gas stations and throw away evidence of wrappers and reciepts and brush my teeth before I get home.

 

[TimToad]

You really like to Cherry pick your sources don't you? The broader overview is America is better and Stronger than it's ever been, both domestically and abroad. Our GDP is the highest it's ever been, unemployment the lowest, and our speculative markets have set over 70 positive records and 0 Negative this past year. The Euro has fallen to it's lowest vs the dollar almost ever, and every other first world market is failing in comparison to the USA... So why is his policies not working again?

My business is thriving and I have hired 5 new employees and looking to hire 3 more in the near term.

Yours and my business success doesn't mean EVERYONE is thriving, or that warning signs and red flags aren't appearing on the horizon. This success of his agenda you are claiming is built on a house of cards in terms of the deficit and growth of the national debt. Remember those two things that the far right claimed to care so much about? Suddenly, none of it seems to matter.

Corporate welfare and cash benefits to farmers and mostly large agribusiness would seem to betray the "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mantra of the right wing, but these are not normal times we are living in.

He wouldn't be throwing $30 BILLION at farmers and agribusiness if folks were absorbing the cost of the tariffs combined with bad weather, a changing climate, low commodity prices, etc.... That's not cherry picking sources, those are the facts. Just because OUR ox isn't directly being gored, doesn't mean somebody else's isn't.

 

[TimToad]

It's been years since my family bought milk. My wife likes cashew milk and I like vanilla almond. She wont let us have dairy in the house so I have to turn off GPS on my phone and sneak around town to get bad food and not get caught. Got to delete internet history searches for restruants. Have to stop at gas stations and throw away evidence of wrappers and reciepts and brush my teeth before I get home.

Coy, mockingly disconnected answers to a serious issue reveal a lack of empathy for a segment of America that is suffering deeply from record numbers of foreclosures, bankruptcies, drug overdoses and suicides. I don't find any of this funny and if it were signmakers being disaffected, I doubt folks would be joking about it.

Dairy farmers are just one leg of a many legged agricultural commodities stool that is being hammered by the tariffs. In rural states, farm loans make up a huge part of the economy because of the length of time it takes from putting a seed in the ground to harvesting and selling it. Farm banks are suffering huge losses right now. Huge swaths of rural America are losing their doctors and hospitals and treatment for the explosion in drug addiction, depression and suicides is evaporating.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mayrar...farmers-banks-and-state-coffers/#66eaed5d5140

 

[Johnny Best]

"China, which imports soybeans to use in livestock feed, has grown increasingly more reliant on Brazil for soybeans since last year, when it applied retaliatory tariffs on U.S. soybeans in response to U.S. duties on Chinese goods."

China use to buy a lot of soybean from the US but then brazil started to make cleaner soybeans. US soybean had a lot of dirt and other things mixed in and cause a rift with buying by the tonnage from US. So China applied tariffs to the US soybeans. But China has suffered a African swine flu fever which has killed millions of pigs. Now China imports Argentina soybean because the Brazilian soybean loses its protein faster. But drought in Argentina has cut production back.The US soybean has lost their protein as farmers try to produce more yield. The US will start selling large amounts of soybeans again to China after this last tariff talks with China.
Those red flags that Toad sees on the horizon are the Chinese tankers coming back towards the US to haul off US farm products.

 

[Gino]

Hey darlak, from what I've read and learned over the years, your area has been in the pits for a who-o-o-le lot longer than Trump's tariff tactics. What was to blame before he came along ??

 

[TimToad]

"China, which imports soybeans to use in livestock feed, has grown increasingly more reliant on Brazil for soybeans since last year, when it applied retaliatory tariffs on U.S. soybeans in response to U.S. duties on Chinese goods."

China use to buy a lot of soybean from the US but then brazil started to make cleaner soybeans. US soybean had a lot of dirt and other things mixed in and cause a rift with buying by the tonnage from US. So China applied tariffs to the US soybeans. But China has suffered a African swine flu fever which has killed millions of pigs. Now China imports Argentina soybean because the Brazilian soybean loses its protein faster. But drought in Argentina has cut production back.The US soybean has lost their protein as farmers try to produce more yield. The US will start selling large amounts of soybeans again to China after this last tariff talks with China.
Those red flags that Toad sees on the horizon are the Chinese tankers coming back towards the US to haul off US farm products.

They may be hauling off SOME farm products, but it likely won't be as much as necessary to save the most at risk farmers. Plus, we don't know what kind of weather conditions will prevail in the upcoming growing season. Or how many of more of these farmers will have buried themselves and the banks they rely on by the time a final deal is agreed on and purchasing patterns revert back to the old alliances and agreements.

Look at the chart in the Forbes article at how many rural, farm banks are sitting on 300% of capital loans. That doesn't leave much wiggle room for lenders if the economy keeps flattening out.

There is no finalized deal in place as we speak, the Chinese have far less demand for soybeans at the moment and there is no guarantee that the Chinese will suddenly drop the sources they have been using since the trade war started. The margin for error in farming is miniscule and any combination can be fatal as we've now seen. There is also increased competition from Russia to consider.

https://fortune.com/2019/11/15/china-trade-war-us-farmers/

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-wheat-soy-imports-from-russia-idUSKCN1UL275

 

[Johnny Best]

A lot of the problems American farmers have is trying to produce more crop they farm more and that requires large machinery which cost a lot so loans are made trough the banks using farm as collateral. China has been shopping for new providers of soybean for years before your beloved Trump even became president. Trump is just trying to even the playing field with China who are shrewd manipulators in business. They have taken and stolen a lot of business from us and something had to be done. Just as people on here complain about suppliers for raising prices so they look for new business suppliers.
And Russia, their farming skills are limited and they can’t even make a good car much less farm machinery to keep up with demand for high crop yields.

 

[ams]

You like paying more for things and having disruption in backbone industries?

These 800+ families in just one state probably had hoped for a better outcome from the imposition of tariffs on their products.

https://www.dairyherd.com/article/w...EwZpKamJq3BbqsHRnDdnua_5Z38BNWBXvcJVovC3kgv6c

Yes you just alter your prices to reflect it. Anything that hurts China I am all for.

 

[Jeremiah]

20.00 to buy something made in USA , 20.50 to buy comparable item that comes from China .

 

[TimToad]

Yes you just alter your prices to reflect it. Anything that hurts China I am all for.

Sounds simple enough. It neglects the fact that our economy and it's current model relies on keeping a lid on inflation, has a bloated deficit and national debt affecting it's maneuverability, mostly stagnant working class wages and a declining manufacturing base. The bloodbath occurring in our retail sector doesn't help either.

All of this tough talk and actions were predicated on some vastly overstated growth predictions that haven't been realized. One quarter of barely 3% growth in three years will not get it done on covering the debt being accumulated or these higher costs of nearly everything. Sooner or later, the game of chicken being played will come home to roost and average working class Americans like us all will pay the price for it all.

 

[TimToad]

20.00 to buy something made in USA , 20.50 to buy comparable item that comes from China .

You'll have to show your math on that one.

If something that cost $20.00 in both countries yesterday suddenly has a 25% tariff added to the imported product, it's cost isn't $20.50, it's $25.00.

If consumers have limited buying power due to constrained wages and U.S. manufacturers don't produce enough of that product, what happens?

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Sounds simple enough. It neglects the fact that our economy and it's current model relies on keeping a lid on inflation, has a bloated deficit and national debt affecting it's maneuverability, mostly stagnant working class wages and a declining manufacturing base. The bloodbath occurring in our retail sector doesn't help either.

All of this tough talk and actions were predicated on some vastly overstated growth predictions that haven't been realized. One quarter of barely 3% growth in three years will not get it done on covering the debt being accumulated or these higher costs of nearly everything. Sooner or later, the game of chicken being played will come home to roost and average working class Americans like us all will pay the price for it all.

Here is a grand idea, drop the 5.9 trillion dollars in social programs and right this ship!

Socialism is just like a Dictatorship or Monarchy, you just trade a single point of power to many who were elected on the notion of handouts.