That ink will void your warranty!!!!(*&*&^%

[wonsngis]

Can you honestly say that by using OEM products and supplies I am doing something wrong ??
Would you honestly recommend to me to change when nothing is wrong ??
I probably do such a low volume that it doesn't effect me the way it would someone like wons. However, my own supplier who sells both OEM and aftermarket says he has the perfect inks for me and I could save a ton of money, but he says to me.... you stay where you are the happiest. It's your baby and you do as you see fit.

Really, there's the crux of it right there. I would never argue that some is "wrong" to use OEM inks, but I would say that someone would be wrong to not even consider 3rd party. You do what is right for your business- and your piece of mind. I stand nothing to lose or gain by the ink choices anyone here makes. I only wish to share my personal insights and experiences for the good of the community so that others can make informed decisions.

One last thought- can you imagine the price of OEM inks if there were no 3rd party????

 

[MachServTech]

Can you honestly say that by using OEM products and supplies I am doing something wrong ??
Would you honestly recommend to me to change when nothing is wrong ??

Absolutely not

But do you feel it is ok for manufacturers to strong arm their customers by threatening to withhold service (non warranty) using the dealers and the techs as their proxy?
They should have the freedom to choose whatever ink or media they want without fear of reprisals and threats of denial of service (non warranty) from manufacturers.

 

[Techman]

Originally Posted by Techman View Post
Do you notice any evidence of non OEM inks?
Do you suspect usage of non OEM inks?
Do you see non OEM ink packaging or wrappers around the storage centers for the printer?
Do you see any non OEM inks in the printer loader?
Do you see any non OEM ink residue inside the chassis?

Once again this is a tactic to make the technicians deny service at the dealer level...removing themselves from involvement.

Nope.. I disagree because there was a time when in fact using non OEM ink caused head failures. This is a fact. Heads would clog and have dead pixels.

But back to wide formats..
There is more to this than just the ink that could cause a failure.

Most of those heads are piezo ceramic pumping devices with tiny valves etc. These valves will go bad after interaction with ink solvents. It is a fact of head life. The wrong combination of solvents will eat those tiny valves faster. In fact there is one brand of preprimed cart heads that is experiencing problems with carts going bad out of the box. They simply sat on a shelf too long and the parts inside are ate up.

That is one reason why carts have time limits on them. Yes we think its because they want to make big bux. But, in carts do go bad.

 

[MachServTech]

Nope.. I disagree because there was a time when in fact using non OEM ink caused head failures. This is a fact. Heads would clog and have dead pixels.

Explain and Justify denial of non-warranty work OF ANY KIND on a machine just because they are using 3rd party ink.


sensors encoders y-motor feed motors spool parts ......come on!

 

[Gino]

Really, there's the crux of it right there. I would never argue that some is "wrong" to use OEM inks, but I would say that someone would be wrong to not even consider 3rd party. You do what is right for your business- and your piece of mind. I stand nothing to lose or gain by the ink choices anyone here makes. I only wish to share my personal insights and experiences for the good of the community so that others can make informed decisions.

One last thought- can you imagine the price of OEM inks if there were no 3rd party????

Yeah, what do you think 3rd party ink would cost if there weren't any OEM's ??

Again, it's a useless question.


Let's go back to a time when things weren't so scientific and we sold signs for what they were really worth from a laborers stand point. We sold the materials we used to make the sign, the paint, the brushes, our time and overhead and then markup and profit. That all came to $XX amount of dollars. That's how it went for a long time... maybe 100 years or so... if not more. Now comes along computers and in about 20 years time.... the same 4'x 8' that I sold for $425. in 1980 goes for about $250 today by most sign shop's standards these days based on the many tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars they spent on equipment because they didn't have the talent to do it by hand and you want to beat me up over pennies a square foot ??

C'mon.... where is your spirit for doing things by a standard and sticking to something that works for you and not jumping ship every time a new deal comes up ??

If I can save 15% or so by changing a product that won't hurt me or my customer, I'll consider it. However, I have a loyalty to those that help me and serve me well. I won't change products to save pennies, That to me is ludicrous. That is not to be confused with keeping up with progress. I don't see where a warranty is broken if I buy aftermarket brakes or hoses for my car, but if it's in the warranties of my machinery that keeps us going.... then I have to listen to what is written. Once my machine is out of warranty... if it ain't broke.... why fix it ??

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

for those that are under the impression that a material vendor is going to step up and replace a project that has a failure PLEASE really take time to ask the questions you need to ask to clarify what they will and will not replace/reimburse/whatever.

in my experience the majority of those warranties you are only going to receive replacement for the material from that manufacturer. in very few instances have i seen anything paid out for labor and i personally have never seen anyone get their selling cost.

just make certain you know what those warranties truly are before you rely on them thinking that they are something that they are not.

 

[Techman]

Explain and Justify denial of non-warranty work OF ANY KIND on a machine just because they are using 3rd party ink.


sensors encoders y-motor feed motors spool parts ......come on!

I cannot because I personally have never ever heard of a complete denial for such things nor encountered it. And, I have not met any one who actually first hand ever had a complete denial of services done to them because they used a third party ink.

In my example above it was just for the print heads for using wrong inks. But, I never saw anyone suffer a bad clutch, motor or any other part under warranty.

 

[wonsngis]

if it ain't broke.... why fix it ??

You obviously don't own a Scitex XL1500. In stock form w/OEM inks, it IS broke. HP's inks are crap. They dry too aggressively and cause clogged heads and banding.

The fix? Sericol ink. Superior in EVERY aspect to the OEM inks. The machine now runs better and produces superior prints.

Why are you so confrontational about this issue?

 

[Gino]

Absolutely not

But do you feel it is ok for manufacturers to strong arm their customers by threatening to withhold service (non warranty) using the dealers and the techs as their proxy?
They should have the freedom to choose whatever ink or media they want without fear of reprisals and threats of denial of service (non warranty) from manufacturers.

I don't ever remember being strong-armed by anyone under the circumstances you're describing. If it's happening to others out in the industry... were they not told first... BEFORE they bought any equipment that this would happen if they did this, then I think it's wrong. I've never bought anything of high dollar value without knowing all of my possibilities going into the purchase.

Sounds to me, you're describing backroom tactics of suppliers doing business more than voiding warranties.

 

[Gino]

You obviously don't own a Scitex XL1500. In stock form w/OEM inks, it IS broke. HP's inks are crap. They dry too aggressively and cause clogged heads and banding.

The fix? Sericol ink. Superior in EVERY aspect to the OEM inks. The machine now runs better and produces superior prints.

Why are you so confrontational about this issue?

No, I don’t own one of those machines, but if it’s doing all the things you said it’s doing, then it seems you have a bum machine. So, if you wanna play around and change things around inside…. be my guest and make it sing and bring in money. Ya gotta do what ya gotta do to stay alive these days. For me, I’ve never been in your situation except once, where the tech came out to fix something and broke something else in the process and then wrong parts came in two days in a row. This tech was a champ at what he does, but he single-handedly ruined our production on a machine for 9 days. He was printing most of our files and bringing them to us the next morning and I also had some shops that I know, do some other stuff for us so we wouldn’t piss off any customers. We eventually got back up, but he had to replace quite a few things and it only cost me some headache time.

That was my only encounter with a problematic machine. All the others we could fix ourselves in a matter a few minutes to a few hours. We don’t baby out equipment, but it serves us well.

I still see no need to use anything other than what is prescribed for us.




As for being confrontational…. I didn’t realize I was doing so. I thought I was just answering yours and some other questions directed towards me and offering my answers to better understand my view of not switching unless, like in your case…. you have NO OTHER choice. There are reasons to switch and some better than others, but even as in your case… you didn’t switch to save pennies…. you switched to save your machine, which sounds like there were other issues there than trying to save pennies.

 

[MachServTech]

Sounds to me, you're describing backroom tactics of suppliers doing business more than voiding warranties.

I doubt anyone would even try to strongarm you Gino

It happens more than you think. i dont want to name names here but it isnt veiled...its straight out...(out of warranty) a shop uses 3rd party inks then techs (in some areas) wont come service your machine....end of story....play ball or you are SOL.
If you are in a rural area you may have only 1 or 2 service options. If the manufacturer gives the dealer the directive not to service you....the dealer wont!

Thats a big incentive to stay oem

 

[wonsngis]

As for the XL, its a design flaw in the ink. If you do a search for Sericol, you'll find other members (like Merritt Graphics) who were in the same boat with their XL until Sericol came along.

There are instances, though few and far between, where the OEM ink is truly inferior. That is one of them.

Not REALLY saying you're confrontational, just adding a little levity to what seems to have become a heated discussion.

 

[National Sign Co. - Print]

As for the XL, its a design flaw in the ink. If you do a search for Sericol, you'll find other members (like Merritt Graphics) who were in the same boat with their XL until Sericol came along.

There are instances, though few and far between, where the OEM ink is truly inferior. That is one of them.

Not REALLY saying you're confrontational, just adding a little levity to what seems to have become a heated discussion.

Just for the record the HP XL 300 ink was great for us on our XLjet machines but as they came off of lease and we owned them we cancelled all service contracts and switched to Sericol. Our XL jets ran perfect for 3 and 4 years using HP XL300 ink.

Moving to Sericol will save us about $100K over the next 12 months. Plus I will agree the ink is a better end product.

With switching to Sericol also came them to step up and cover any issues there ink may cause to our machines including printheads, Inktrains and Machine usage costs while down at $400.00 an hour paid to us based on lost opportunities.
So far no issues at all.... Again, we were also smart enough to cover our asses and have the 3rd party supplier step up in writing.

 

[wonsngis]

Oh, Merritt.. just say your name and you pop up, eh?

Sorry I misspoke. I do remember now that experience with the XL was positive even prior to Sericol. I have, however, spoken to many other operators of XLjet's who experienced the exact same issues with the printer/ink (and HP as a corporation) as I did.

I'm curious, Merritt; did you have the XL before Scitex was bought up by HP?

 

[sjm]

I understand what you're saying and I don't disagree in principle. The risks of such a situation are very low, however.

Just to play devil's advocate- how would the media manufacturer prove that you weren't using OEM inks?

They ask you to supply invoices of your ink purchases.

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

So today I told my vendor where I bought my Roland & my laminator and all my ink that I no longer will be supporting roland ink because of the problem I had with it. The yellow ink on 10,000 decals dissapeared after only 3 months of being on top of trash cans. They were not laminated because they were only supposed to be on there for 1 year. THE MANUFACTURER CLAIM is .. "3 year outdoor durability UNLAMINATED"
This claim is FACTUALLY UNTRUE. I sent in the before and after samples...all I got was ..well you should have laminted them...here's a 220 cc yellow ink. (nevermind the 2 rolls of vinyl, time it took to print and cut and my customers time to apply them and now my loss of money to REDO THEM out of my pocket to make up for those)!!!!!! I didn't even say I was using any other inks..I only said I don't support Roland ink anymore and gave that reason. It had nothing to do with price either. I'm still debating on where else to take this...but in the meantime...my supplier emailed me and said my extended warranty was expired as of today and to purchase another year of it..I would have to fork over $1,395. (In the past 2 years...i've never had them out ONCE to service my machine) Anyway...that's my experience with OEM ink by ROLAND.