The "Wrap Daddy" Computer

[John M]

Enter the Sign Monster

Wow - miss a couple of days due to jury duty and a hectic workplace and look what I've missed. I normally don't mention other products by name; I prefer to concentrate on what I can offer. Now that it's already under discussion I feel it's fair for me to weigh in on the matter.

First point of interest: Why build a server as a design machine? What program do you have that can fully use four cores, much less 8? We already know that there are headaches involved when you use a 64 bit OS so that's hardly a plus. Error-correcting memory is a great deal slower than "normal" DDR2 and it offers no benefit in a sign workstation. A Xeon isn't a magic processor; in fact, the X3220 is identical to the Core2Quad E6600.

Raptors are not the ideal drive for this situation. Sure, they're fast, but they're expensive and small. I can counter the performance of any Raptor array by using more but less-expensive SATA2 Raid Edition drives. The result is not only more speed but far more storage space. It's win-win for the customer. Want to say they aren't reliable? They're rated at 1.2 million hours between failure so it's hardly a bargain drive. Raid Edition drives are meant for the enterprise, and they support all features found on the better RAID controller cards. If you were building a database server, use Raptors. For this work they're the wrong tool.

Is there a PC maker who knows Photoshop? YES. Is there a machine available that's proven to mow through design staples like Photoshop, Illustrator, Corel, VersaWorks, etc? YES - and you can buy three of them for the price of "TWD". Don't let a FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) campaign scare you into buying more machine than you need. If you think our $2600 workstation compares well with their $7500 machine, imagine how badly it beats their lower models. The poor Inferno has no chance against the Monster. If you're dying to have a standalone RIP machine, our upcoming Sign Gremlin puts their RIP station to shame and costs $500 less.

Yes, there are options out there, and a lower price does not mean lower quality or less performance. Some of you may have read how I got into this market after doing work for my local sign shop. I may be new to design workstations but I've been an IT professional for a long time and I've built hundreds of machines. I simply offer a quality computer, built to exacting standards, for a fair price. You'll notice I list exactly what parts you get too - there are no mysteries here.

I've been told its appearance is "boring" but you won't notice that so much while it's churning out your designs!

 

[Typestries]

Frank's got to pay for the Ferarri somehow.

For those of you that haven't seen it, they have a Ferarri Testarossa (about a 92 model, I'd guess) that is completely wrapped with one of the Aurara Graphics fills (and not that good looking of an image).

I love Ferarri's, and I just wanted to kick that guy in the backside for ruining a beautiful machine.

if that's the ferrari that was at ussc that wrap job wasnt so perfect. silvering, obvious stretches, a couple of odd cuts, etc.

 

[kstompaint]

if that's the ferrari that was at ussc that wrap job wasnt so perfect. silvering, obvious stretches, a couple of odd cuts, etc.

That car is wrapped and then stripped and re-wrapped for every Fellers wrap class, as I understand it. It was wrapped by students.

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Ugly, Nasty, Mean...

Wow, I never thought this would be such a touchy topic.

There are reasons we tested the systems over and over and over with different sign and graphic design software packages. We wanted to do this RIGHT. Compatibilty problems? Not with the CS2, CS3, or Corel.

Yes, you can build a less capable system for less money. I am flattered that system builders are using our systems as comparison. We tested MANY different hardware configurations in our quest for an awesome design system. By far and above, our Xeon systems outperformed or non-xeon design systems. When designing wraps in Photoshop, there is a HUGE difference. I see that other system builders have hopped on the band wagon. How many different configurations have they tested in real world wrap design? Do they have the resources to test day in and day out with proven wrap design companies? We do. We have wrap designers at Fellers working on these everyday. There are nearly 20 Wrap Daddys at their Wrap Facility in Tulsa. We are working with HUGE names in the sign and wrap software industry to ensure our systems can do what you need them to do. Yes, the biggest names.

Aside from the hardware, we support our own systems. We are able to focus only on the wrap and sign design industries. You can call and speak with the same people that put together each and every system. We know the ins and outs of Photoshop performance. I can guarantee you that photoshop runs MUCH faster in a 64 bit enviroment with the proper performance settings. I don't even remember the last time I have and "out of memory" error in Photoshop on our systems. Can it take advantage of multiple cores? YES. Will it run faster on more than 4 GB of RAM? YES. Photoshop alone can hog upto 3GB of RAM. On other computers (yes, even the "Monster"), that wouldn't leave any RAM for Windows or plug-ins. That doesn't make any sense to me. More than 4GB of RAM is definately beneficial in Photoshop. 64 Bit Windows is an AWESOME platform for wrap design. Thier are entire "followings" led by Adobe developers and scientists dedicated to Photoshop and 64 Bit Windows.

We have other options out there. The Wrap Daddy is just the BIGGEST and the FASTEST. Fellers wanted to put out something that will keep up with even the best designers. It tops our line design focused computers. You may have seen The Wrap Daddy at SEMA in the West Coast Customs booth. West Coast Customs was so impressed, they bought and use on for their shop in California.

There are always going to be people (and companies) that offer a seamingly comparable product for less money. Is all vinyl media the same? Are all 54" large format printers the same? Of course not. Computers are not either. They can take swipes at our computers, that is fine. Yes, this is the Ferarri to their Focus. Will the Focus get you from point A to point B, f course. Is it the same ride as in the Ferarri? Not a chance. OF course they are going to list every little piece of hardware that they use. They have probbaly just thrown together a few pieces of hardware with the hopes of fooling someone. We do publish all of our specs, but we have spent a long time fine tuning our systems. Others would just hop on our coat-tails if we told them all of our secrets. Why would you need to know exactly what motherbaord, brand and model of RAM, etc. unless you are trying to duplicate our success without any of the work it took to find our recipe? When was the last time Apple told you what motherboard they were using? You can take our specs and build a thousand different machines. Some good, some horrible. We have heard several stories of folks trying to have their local guy build a design computer with our published specs with lower than optimal results. Then they call us with questions on how to make it work. Yikes.

You will see us at all of the major sign shows this year. We will be in the Fellers booth at SGIA, ISA, SEMA, and others. Come by and look us up. We would be happy to demonstrate our systems or answer any questions you might have. If you can't wait, call us.

 

[mark in tx]

I remember back a few years when a good SGI would set you back 10k.

 

[Gino]

Touchy Subject.... YOU BET !!

I certainly don’t see a problem having several computer nerds here trying to outdo the other with their knowledge. To me…. it all becomes Greek rather quickly. Also, it’s rather comforting to see some other industry bash the dickens out of each for a change rather than us sign people. Now watch people as this must be how the REAL professionals do it.

However, the guy/gal that wants to keep their information secret for any reason is the one person or company I would never choose….. SIMPLY based on years and years of experience.

Sorry wrap guy, but you’re the one that made the analogy of comparing cars driving or vinyl brands. With cars, I can test drive them, have a mechanic look at it, practically take it apart and I also get to see a complete parts list. I’ll know if there are any French Renault parts in the braking system or Brazilian after market exhaust systems on it. That’s used or new. It’s the law.

However, you mentioned vinyl. Here is where you have no room to talk. If some company [A V E R Y]…. I repeat A V E R Y…. would’ve been honest about their secrets….. ¾’s of the working sign people out in the work force today wouldn’t have been burnt and lied to for years. They told us, as you’re doing.... it wasn’t any of our business. I beg to differ. People lost businesses, homes, lives due to this type of bologna. If you want me to buy something you make… or simply offer me something to look at…. I WANT ALL the written and mental information you have. If you don’t have it…. GET IT.

I like Fellers and everything they stand for, but don’t give me a bunch of lip about what is for me to know and what you will allow me to know about something you want me to buy. Feller’s have and has never had that attitude on any of their products and I don’t think he would take too kindly to you running off at the mouth with a business practice like that. He’ll replace you in a heartbeat should you continue that kind of talk. You would not be hard to be replaced.

I don’t give a rat’s behind what you tested or how you tested it…. I would want my person to look it over and see if you’re telling me the truth, since you've now put mistrust in your system to me. I don’t care what story line you have…. Anyway, if you built this thing as strong, fast and beefy as you stated… and it can’t be matched anywhere on the planet…. why be afraid of letting everyone know what’s in it…unless you can’t back it up or you’re taking advantage of an unsuspecting market and it’s too late to pull back ??

Gino​

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Sorry to offend. WOW. We are not keeping any other secrets other than intelectual property. Come to ISA, you can take a look under the hood.

 

[ChiknNutz]

I agree with the sentiment, Gino, but somethings do have a certain level of propriety to help give them an advantage in a given market. I'd venture to say that if 'they' have come up with something very innovative and/or proprietary, then let 'em keep it that way for a while. I'm in no way taking sides here, just offering a slightly different perspective.

 

[MobileImpact]

It's not the computer or processors that are pricey on this damn thing. The computer alone is about a $4500 value. Franks charging an extra $3000 to have Sergio to Design, Print and Wrap it with Avery Film.

 

[SignBurst PCs]

It's wrapped, but not wrapped in Avery

 

[jayhawksigns]

My problem with that computer is that last I knew, Photoshop isn't fully multi-core ready, and neither is the majority of the software a wrap designer would be using. So IMHO its overkill. You would be better off spending all of that money on at least two computers and still have a killer design station, and then a completely capable rip as well.

Some people are attracted to the highest price thing they can find because it must be the best, thats why it sells.

 

[Gino]

It's wrapped, but not wrapped in Avery

Okay, now that's good. At least I now know you understand my point.

to ya........

 

[SignBurst PCs]

Photoshop can use multiple processors. It has been able to since CS2 (with an update).

 

[schurms]

The tech guys know best, but to me its parts you can buy from anywhere to build a computer. Its not that complicated.

 

[synergy_jim]

the Xeon procs cost alot more than regular core2duo desktop processors... these are server class processors.

The 64bit windows is required to address the 8gb RAM...

the 64bit windows will limit the sales but I'll bet it's a screaming mimi for 64 bit apps.

$7500 is a reasonable price for an 8-core, 8gb, etc.. server class machine.

I used to build servers for a living...

dude..... Thats ridiculous...

I have a new mac pro quad core w/ 10gb of ram and 1tb of storage and dont even have 5k in the thing.

7500.00 for a pc is freaking stupid...

 

[John M]

Yes, you can build a less capable system for less money. I am flattered that system builders are using our systems as comparison.

Less capable of doing what? Functioning as an enterprise database server, perhaps, but not for graphics design.

I see that other system builders have hopped on the band wagon. How many different configurations have they tested in real world wrap design?

There's no bandwagon here. I'd never heard of your machine or your company until after I was a member here. What others have done doesn't concern me -- it's what I can do that is important. I was asked by a local shop to build a machine for wide format printing and I did so. Only after after seeing the before & after did I decide to see if other sign shops could use a similar machine.

I know how to build heavy duty machines. I've built web servers that see several million hits a month. I've built mail servers for 10,000 users. I've also bought servers when necessary, some reaching well into the six-figure range. My servers must be able to go months between reboots. I'm a professional with a degree and nearly 15 years experience (professional; 25+ years as a hobbyist), not some kid just out of high school who once built a gaming rig.

We are able to focus only on the wrap and sign design industries. You can call and speak with the same people that put together each and every system.

I don't focus on any one industry. I have a wide variety of clients from doctors, lawyers, real estate offices, restaurants, schools, government agencies, and all kinds of businesses that use our services. If you call my store, you speak to me - the same guy who built your machine. Several shops from Signs101 have spoken with me - I really do exist!

So you say Photoshop runs so much better with 64 bit and more cores. Too bad there are just as many people out there who don't believe that. Just like virtually all programs, Photoshop performance doesn't increase in a linear fashion as the number of cores increases. Memory bandwidth, something in short supply on a server with ECC memory, becomes a real limiting factor. It benefits from two or three cores, but 8 is just too many to make a difference. Jayhawksigns isn't the only one who noticed a lack of full SMP use by Photoshop:

http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2006/12/photoshop_and_multicore.html

Want to see why 64 bit isn't the end-all when it comes to Photoshop? I promise it's a good read.

http://blogs.adobe.com/scottbyer/2006/12/64_bitswhen.html

The Wrap Daddy is just the BIGGEST and the FASTEST.

Can you quantify that? Fastest at what task? Oh, it's big, but does it make a usable difference? Does it make a 3X difference? I assert that your 64-bit, 8-core machine does not hold any advantage over a 4 core machine. It's about the total machine, not just a sum of the parts.

OF course they are going to list every little piece of hardware that they use. They have probbaly just thrown together a few pieces of hardware with the hopes of fooling someone. We do publish all of our specs, but we have spent a long time fine tuning our systems. Others would just hop on our coat-tails if we told them all of our secrets. Why would you need to know exactly what motherbaord, brand and model of RAM, etc. unless you are trying to duplicate our success without any of the work it took to find our recipe?

I assume I'm the "they", so I must say I laugh at the notion that I'm the one trying to "fool" anyone. My whole point is there's no reason anyone should want to duplicate your machine because it's not the right tool for the job. The only way your computer compares to a Ferrari is its relative price and the fact that you mark them up enough to buy a Ferrari after selling a few. I don't need or want your recipe - you'll find mine does quite well.

I hate to give away the secret to computer design but here it is: there are no secrets. I list the parts because people deserve to know what they're buying. Anyone who wanted to build their own machine would do so with or without my list of parts. I know not to make my own signs, and there are plenty of sign shops who decide not to make their own computers.

Now to the meat of it:

Anyone that would like a 64-bit OS and 8 gigs of memory, I'll equip the Sign Monster that way for a total of $2799. Compared to TWD you'll have faster memory, faster disk drives, and more storage space, albeit with "only" 4 processor cores. Want a magic Xeon processor? You can have one as a no-cost option, seeing as how it's the identical chip at an identical price. In this configuration you could buy two Sign Monsters plus four 22 inch LCD monitors and still save $700.

I'm willing to stand behind my product, both with a 3 year warranty on parts & labor, and by offering to run any benchmark(s) requested by Signs101 members. If it comes down to it, I'll drive a machine to a member's shop and have it tested in any manner they'd like. If they've got a Wrap Daddy onsite to compare it to, that'll be even better.

Gino - I'm doing my best to keep it from being an all-out pissing match. At the same time, I wanted to let those questioning the Wrap Daddy know that they're not the only ones with that opinion. I'm confident that my work will speak for itself better than any words I can put on the screen.

 

[slipperyfrog]

Wait six months and build it for 40% less.

 

[iSign]

Nice post John!
I'm not entirely happy with the combined capability of the 5 computers in my shop & expect to add at least one this year.

I've been very impressed with everything about the way you've presented yourself and your products in the past...

...& I really appreciate the professionalism you have shown in completely annhilating any mirage or mystique the wrap-happy hip-hop cowboys hoped to achieve by blowing smoke out every candy-colored rip-torn tribal beveled oriface, as if stikin' an adolescent rock god wanna-be name on a trumped-up e-machine on steoids was gonna somehow make a better business man out of any rogue vinyl jocky with excess drug profits, and insufficient sense!

When I'm ready for an extreme machine, there's no contest in deciding you would be the guy to call.

...oh yeah, also wanted to thank you for being a merchant here & supporting this site!

 

[kstompaint]

I'm suprised at the controversy and attitude in this thread.

Gino, you took the automotive comparison out of context. Let me rephrase it as I see it. For YEARS, Ford worked with Cummins on a dedicated diesel engine for medium duty trucks, that was foresight in the 80's. After the time and money they invested, Cummins sold the technology to Dodge on a technicality. It was legal, and Ford should have better protected their investment. I own a Dodge diesel because it's the best, most reliable diesel powered pick-up available. If I could get a Ford with a Cummins, I probably would. Get the comparison?

Casey is protecting his investment. If he disclosed exactly what the components were and how they are configured, anybody could duplicate it and negate his invested time and money. You charge for design work, right? If you design a sign for no charge with the expectation of making the sign and then the guy down the street duplicates your artwork for a fraction of the price, you're pissed off, right?

Customer service is an issue as well. If you're capable of buying and assembling the parts yourself and feel that you can do it as well as Fellers, by all means do it. If you save some $, hat's off to ya. Yesterday there was a minor glitch in our Wrap Daddy and my guy called the HWT number. Casey anwered the phone personally and had the problem solved in less than 2 minutes, as well as some additional advice. Try that with any wwwdot1800 system. My employee, who is a recent hire but has about 5 years in the business hung up the phone and looked at me with a blank stare. I said "what." He said "without a doubt that was the best tech support call I have ever made." If they made a few bucks on me, I'm ok with it. Time is money and I'm no techie.

 

[iSign]

for the record... if I felt bad at all by adding fuel to the fire here... it was in hopes that kstompaint would not be offended by my comments.

I'm no techie either... and I drive a Chevy... and, again for the record... as much as I love my Chevy, I paid too much for it. I am a good negotiator sometimes... but I dropped my guard because I walked right up to a salesman I had used on my previous auto lease and handed him my business... & I somehow expected at least a little bit of honesty or loyalty from this guy. In the end he was looking out for only himself and his employer...

Point being, if John says it ain't worth $7500... in a polite professional manner, I would tend to believe him more then anyone else on this thread, even though he obviously has a vested interest. It may be great and you may be satisfied... but you also may have paid too much!

I'm sure your WD is powerful and I'm sure your tech support call was everything you claim... but the wrap-happy hip-hop cowboy is still being a jerk IMO... and in his first week here, being a product pushing jerk to a merchant member (even if someone else DID bring up his product first) ...I think he will have to accept the controversy and attitude he gets, as a product of his own controversy and attitude!