Thermal vs Inkjet

[Colin]

I was about 90% ready to pull the trigger on a Summa DC4x until I realized (from others) how expensive they are to operate.

I've heard that the higher price per square foot is minimal when the lam factor is removed, and also is barely an issue until larger volumes come into play.

*big shrug*

 

[GAC05]

Colin,
on the laminator if the budget (and space) is really tight consider a "Manual Cold Laminator"
If you are not doing high volume production work this type of laminator might be just what you need.
It is very quick to set up for smaller jobs or mounting odd sized scrap lam on the fly.
They are hand cranked and have no take up or feed reels so you cut the lam to fit the job and go at it.
I've run full 54" x 40ft single runs through mine with one extra set of hands to help out.
Takes a little practice but once you've got it down (being so simple) there is very little that can go wrong.
It also works great at mounting prints on everything from aluminium sheet to coroplast.
A new 60" unit should be around $1k (I think) so along with a big squeegee it is a good start point to get into digital printing inhouse.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Colin]

On the laminator, if the budget (and space) is really tight consider a "Manual Cold Laminator"

The whole issue for me is space, but thanks for that information, it is definately added to the stack of considerations.

Cheers.

If you are not doing high volume production work this type of laminator might be just what you need.

I'm definately not a high volume shop. "One man show".

 

[GAC05]

The whole issue for me is space, but thanks for that information, it is definately added to the stack of considerations.

Cheers.




I'm definately not a high volume shop. "One man show".

Gottcha,
with a unit as simple as this you could ditch the stand and hinge it to the end of your weeding table so it could swing down out of the way when you are not using it.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Colin]

With a unit as simple as this you could ditch the stand and hinge it to the end of your weeding table so it could swing down out of the way when you are not using it.

Yet another thing to think about! thanks a million.

....which reminds me of an adage:

"If you want to make a million dollars in the sign business, start with two million"


lol

 

[Colin]

Interesting article:

http://www.graphicms.com/inkjet.html#restart




.

 

[GAC05]

That has been posted here before.
There are some valid points in there but it is very biased on the thermal side.
Both have their advantages it just depends on the type of work you do - or want
to do.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Colin]

There are some valid points in there but it is very biased on the thermal side.

Yes, the bias is blatant, but I have to wonder if that is because what they say is basically true, or because it's what they sell.

 

[Gino]

I think you have to consider a few things besides what you want or need.

• Your need is a digital printer which takes up very little real estate.
• That also is what you want. So………….

Ask your distributor the cost of manufacturing prints, banners or vinyls of one vs. the other. The cost of films, cartridges, time to load, unload, time for printing, various speeds for various products.
Although the claim to fame for the thermal system is no laminate needed….. if you are going to use it on any surface as a wrap, partial wrap, sign or long lasting media to hold up against vandalism, you must laminate regardless of which machine you buy. To not laminate is somewhat reckless business, due to the fact the only reason you don’t need to laminate thermals is for UV applications…. nothing else. Harsh cleaners or spilling something on a thermal is as bad as on solvent or mild solvent. A tree will mar the finish on a thermal as well as on a mild solvent.

You’ll need to get some sort of lamination system setup as soon as possible, or you’ll eventually have upset customers from time to time with expectations as you are contemplating yourself right now.

 

[Colin]

Thanks for the thoughts & comments Gino. For me, I suspect that the vast majority of prints I would do (if thermal) would not require lamination. As I am a one-man-show, I won't be doing any wraps (and there is a guy here who undercuts everybody on wraps anyways). Heck, like Dan Antonelli, I don't even think wraps are money well spent. 99% of the ones I've seen are just a messy mass of confusion which don't communicate very well at all.

I do lots of boat lettering, and while that would still remain being done with cast vinyl, a laminated thermal print might get utilized now & then.

Most of my work is smaller stuff, so If I can get away with a Big Squeegee for those occasional lam needs, I'll be happy.

 

[FatCat]

Colin, your situation sounds very similar to mine. I've survived a little over a year since buying my printer with only a BS. Looking back, I've suffered through a few large projects with it that really should have been done on a laminator. That said, I've also got a fellow Signs101'er that is within an hour drive of me that I have called on in the past to help me laminate big jobs like wraps. So if you can find someone within driving distance that would be willing to help you if you had an occasional large job I think the BS should suffice until your volume increases to where you absolutely NEED a laminator.

*Also, talk to current OWNERS about their Summa printers - not salesmen. See what their cost per sq. ft is and compare it to inkjet prices.

 

[petepaz]

we have both thermal and solvent also a laminator
and i think you need all three to be complete
you can work and operate successfully with either but each one has it's own specific job
we run gerber edge, 2 roland print cut w/ ecosol inks and you just push the work towards the machine that is best suited for each job
and when things get going really good throw in the flatbed uv w/ the cnc machine

 

[Colin]

So if you can find someone within driving distance that would be willing to help you if you had an occasional large job I think the BS should suffice until your volume increases to where you absolutely NEED a laminator.

Good tip.

Also, talk to current OWNERS about their Summa printers - not salesmen. See what their cost per sq. ft. is and compare it to inkjet prices.

Indeed!

It's too bad that digi printing has become so highly competitive (cut-throat), especially given the expense of the equipment, materials, inks/ribbons, software, etc.

 

[Colin]

....and i think you need all three to be complete.
You can work and operate successfully with either but each one has it's own specific job.
We run gerber edge, 2 roland print cut w/ ecosol inks and you just push the work towards the machine that is best suited for each job, and when things get going really good throw in the flatbed uv w/ the cnc machine

Ideally, that is true; however, I'm a 700 sq. ft. home-based (detached) shop with no employees. I will be buying & using one printing machine only, and it's my task to find out which printer would be the best overall choice.

 

[petepaz]

Ideally, that is true; however, I'm a 700 sq. ft. home-based (detached) shop with no employees. I will be buying & using one printing machine only, and it's my task to find out which printer would be the best overall choice.

if that's the case i would think your best bet is inkjet (printer cutter combo)
and a laminator
i also wouldn't go 30" if you can afford it go 54" minimum
(we got the 30 first and like 6 months later we ended up buying the 54)
i think it was said before but the inkjet gives you the widest array of things you can print at the lowest cost

 

[gabagoo]

Thanks for the thoughts & comments Gino. For me, I suspect that the vast majority of prints I would do (if thermal) would not require lamination. As I am a one-man-show, I won't be doing any wraps (and there is a guy here who undercuts everybody on wraps anyways). Heck, like Dan Antonelli, I don't even think wraps are money well spent. 99% of the ones I've seen are just a messy mass of confusion which don't communicate very well at all.

I do lots of boat lettering, and while that would still remain being done with cast vinyl, a laminated thermal print might get utilized now & then.

Most of my work is smaller stuff, so If I can get away with a Big Squeegee for those occasional lam needs, I'll be happy.

Based on that the BS will work fine for you. There is a learning curve like anything else, but once you get it down pat, you can laminate effortlessly.
I may plunge for another laminator one day (a good one this time) but the BS seems to work for me and I just plan out my jobs so that I can utilize the BS to fit what is needed. So for instance if I need to print 500 small decals I might run them in sets of 125 and then use 24" laminate 5 times and it takes less than 20 minutes to laminate.

I made the mistake of buying a laminator that was more designed for mounting and had 2 pressure wheels as to one and that has caused me to abandon the machine. Makes a great space waster!!!

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Heck, like Dan Antonelli, I don't even think wraps are money well spent. 99% of the ones I've seen are just a messy mass of confusion which don't communicate very well at all.

Colin, I've decided that statistically, it's actually 99.5%. LOL

 

[Colin]

Colin, I've decided that statistically, it's actually 99.5%. LOL

Ya, well, you can prove anything with statistics.

73% of people know that.


:Big Laugh

 

[Colin]

After speaking with a local guy who had a constant negative experience with the Summa DC4, I've been persuaded to the injket camp. So, what are the ones to choose from for a "Print & Cut" machine in the 30" - 42" range? (or is the VersaCamm the no-brainer winner?)

Also, I imagine that it has been discussed ad nausium already here, so if someone could point me to the thread which deals with the "true" nature/safety of "Eco-Solvent" inks in terms of health effects and ventilation needs that would be great.

 

[signmeup]

Colin, It sounds to me like an Edge would be your best bet. If you mostly do boat lettering the gold foil alone would make it a solid choice. The don't appear to take up much room either. A used or refurbished one might be just the ticket.
I don't need a lot of printing done so I use a local shop to do it for me. I pay $4 a square foot for most stuff. If I divide the price of a printer by $4 I come up with about 6000 square feet of prints, not even counting ink or media. I don't need to stock different rolls of media that would likely go bad before I used them either. Got to go send off a retractable banner file.....