Think of it this way....

[Reveal1]

It's worthwhile to actually LOOK at data instead of pulling bits and pieces from sources with biased reporting or that support your own bias. This is actual CDC data on EXCESS deaths, that is (quoting from the CDC website) 'Comparing these two sets of estimates — excess deaths with and without COVID-19 — can provide insight about how many excess deaths are identified as due to COVID-19, and how many excess deaths are reported as due to other causes of death. These deaths could represent misclassified COVID-19 deaths, or potentially could be indirectly related to the COVID-19 pandemic (e.g., deaths from other causes occurring in the context of health care shortages or overburdened health care systems).'

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Select ' Excess deaths with and without COVID-19' Look at the Dark blue bar graph. That's actual reported total deaths over 'normal' death rates. Draw your own conclusions, but at least use real data.

Interesting sidebar - note 2018 flu season.

 

[iPrintStuff]

I honestly don’t get why people have such a stick up their A** about wearing a mask and social distancing. I’d joke “it’s not going to kill you” but ironically it’s more likely to do the opposite, or at least stop you spreading as many germs and keep everyone’s granny alive.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

It's worthwhile to actually LOOK at data instead of pulling bits and pieces from sources with biased reporting or that support your own bias. This is actual CDC data on EXCESS deaths, that is (quoting from the CDC website) 'Comparing these two sets of estimates — excess deaths with and without COVID-19 — can provide insight about how many excess deaths are identified as due to COVID-19, and how many excess deaths are reported as due to other causes of death. These deaths could represent misclassified COVID-19 deaths, or potentially could be indirectly related to the COVID-19 pandemic (e.g., deaths from other causes occurring in the context of health care shortages or overburdened health care systems).'

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid19/excess_deaths.htm

Select ' Excess deaths with and without COVID-19' Look at the Dark blue bar graph. That's actual reported total deaths over 'normal' death rates. Draw your own conclusions, but at least use real data.

Interesting sidebar - note 2018 flu season.

I agree and do look at the data. My wife also works as an ARNP at a hospital so she gets quite a bit of local data as well. I take issue with this data because it says right on it that it is incomplete and the only period of time it says this is from Feb 8th on which is about when Covid testing started. This is still splitting hairs to me. It's like saying smoking is dangerous and having someone laugh and say yeah but really how dangerous is it, my grandfather smoked until she was 100 years old and it never hurt him.

 

[Reveal1]

I agree and do look at the data. My wife also works as an ARNP at a hospital so she gets quite a bit of local data as well. I take issue with this data because it says right on it that it is incomplete and the only period of time it says this is from Feb 8th on which is about when Covid testing started. This is still splitting hairs to me. It's like saying smoking is dangerous and having someone laugh and say yeah but really how dangerous is it, my grandfather smoked until she was 100 years old and it never hurt him.

You have your cursor on Feb 8th. The data goes thru July 22 and their reference to incompleteness is 'within 10 days' They don't make it easy for mere mortals to understand. It's more like saying 'everyone who comes into contact with cigarette smoke is going to die' Yeah, a lot of people will die from COVID, but clearly the data doesn't support anything close to 140,000 deaths.

 

[Reveal1]

So we had one of our beloved senators, Jason Rapert (R), get diagnosed. He is a super Republican, super conservative, good ole country boy, with tremendous support from his constituents. The first comment on a news article detailing his disease:
"He’s just a liar. Faking the disease trying to make rural people wear a mask willingly."
I'm dumbfounded. If it didn't come out of Trump's mouth, some folks will never believe it.

That's why I try to stay away from social media, including the comment forum in my local paper. Bunch of whack jobs on both sides making stuff up and when the the facts support a different viewpoint, they start calling each other names, blame Trump or Biden, or claim the facts are made up. At least here, with a few exceptions, the conversation tends to run fairly polite and thoughtful.

 

[rossmosh]

None of our opinions matter. We are massively unqualified to have an opinion on this matter.

There is consistent messaging coming from the top professionals in their fields: Wear a mask. Social distance. Wash your hands. Avoid large groups when possible. Quarantine yourself if you break the rules. Get tested.

That's it. It's not a big deal. It's not even worth discussing. Follow the basic rules and the world will slowly return back to normal. Don't follow the rules, the world will continue to be this.

Don't like the "government over-reach"? Follow the rules so it can be suspended. Want to go to the local bar? Follow the rules so the restrictions can be lifted. Want to go back to business as usual? Follow the rules. Are you getting the picture? Following the rules is the solution, not the problem. The rules are washing your hands, wearing a mask, and social distancing for 2-4 consecutive months. It's not that complicated and it baffles me that people think rallying against the rules is somehow going to ultimately benefit them.

 

[Andy D]

1st, questioning data isn't the same as saying we shouldn't wear a mask, at least for me...
I question everything, including this, but I'm still taking all the precautions.

What I would like to see is the national death rates for the last five years, of all the things
that could be misdiagnosed as Covid; flu, heart attack, stroke, cancer, ect. and see if those deaths went down
roughly at the same rate that the Covid deaths rates went up... that would be telling.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Everywhere I go now people have been doing the right thing for weeks. You can't go into a store without a mask on.... maybe thats not the case everywhere?

 

[Reveal1]

None of our opinions matter. We are massively unqualified to have an opinion on this matter.

There is consistent messaging coming from the top professionals in their fields: Wear a mask. Social distance. Wash your hands. Avoid large groups when possible. Quarantine yourself if you break the rules. Get tested.

That's it. It's not a big deal. It's not even worth discussing. Follow the basic rules and the world will slowly return back to normal. Don't follow the rules, the world will continue to be this.

Don't like the "government over-reach"? Follow the rules so it can be suspended. Want to go to the local bar? Follow the rules so the restrictions can be lifted. Want to go back to business as usual? Follow the rules. Are you getting the picture? Following the rules is the solution, not the problem. The rules are washing your hands, wearing a mask, and social distancing for 2-4 consecutive months. It's not that complicated and it baffles me that people think rallying against the rules is somehow going to ultimately benefit them.

Wow, none of our opinions matter? And that's because the elites never lie or manipulate the lowly, massively under-qualified citizenry? I happen to believe the tactics, what you call the 'rules' will help, but how about leading instead of ruling?

 

[rossmosh]

1st, questioning data isn't the same as saying we shouldn't wear a mask, at least for me...
I question everything, including this, but I'm still taking all the precautions.

What I would like to see is the national death rates for the last five years, of all the things
that could be misdiagnosed as Covid; flu, heart attack, stroke, cancer, ect. and see if those deaths went down
roughly at the same rate that the Covid deaths rates went up... that would be telling.

Simply put, questioning everything is incredibly stupid and a massive waste of time and energy. I know teachers told you to question things to make sure you weren't believing incorrect information. They were wrong. They did a shitty job of teaching you what you're actually supposed to do. The goal was to keep kids from blindly believing information. The actual result was a bunch of adults questioning everything and then landing on whatever information feels right. That's not the correct end result. You're supposed to say "Hey, should I be wearing a mask? Let me do research. Oh wow, every credible medical professional and organization in the world says I should. End of discussion." Instead you're searching Youtube for people to disagree with consensus, professional opinion.

Imagine if I walked into your sign shop and you told me to use printed cast vinyl with cast overlay for a sign project and I googled for 10 hours to find some random person saying painted signs are the only things that last and all vinyl is garbage and a waste of money. That opinion is going against professional, consensus opinion. Imagine how frustrated you'd be dealing with an individual like that. Imagine how stupid you'd think they were.

Everywhere I go now people have been doing the right thing for weeks. You can't go into a store without a mask on.... maybe thats not the case everywhere?

People are not behaving. People have their masks barely on their face. People are having family parties and graduations. People are gathering for 4th of July. Beaches are packed. Bars are full (even though they're supposed to be closed). That's not even talking about work related conditions.

 

[Gino]

Simply put, questioning everything is incredibly stupid and a massive waste of time and energy. I know teachers told you to question things to make sure you weren't believing incorrect information. They were wrong. They did a shitty job of teaching you what you're actually supposed to do. The goal was to keep kids from blindly believing information. The actual result was a bunch of adults questioning everything and then landing on whatever information feels right. That's not the correct end result. You're supposed to say "Hey, should I be wearing a mask? Let me do research. Oh wow, every credible medical professional and organization in the world says I should. End of discussion." Instead you're searching Youtube for people to disagree with consensus, professional opinion.

Imagine if I walked into your sign shop and you told me to use printed cast vinyl with cast overlay for a sign project and I googled for 10 hours to find some random person saying painted signs are the only things that last and all vinyl is garbage and a waste of money. That opinion is going against professional, consensus opinion. Imagine how frustrated you'd be dealing with an individual like that. Imagine how stupid you'd think they were.

People are not behaving. People have their masks barely on their face. People are having family parties and graduations. People are gathering for 4th of July. Beaches are packed. Bars are full (even though they're supposed to be closed). That's not even talking about work related conditions.

Ya only hafta google this place..... you'll get loads of those kinda answers..................................

 

[Notarealsignguy]

You have your cursor on Feb 8th. The data goes thru July 22 and their reference to incompleteness is 'within 10 days' They don't make it easy for mere mortals to understand. It's more like saying 'everyone who comes into contact with cigarette smoke is going to die' Yeah, a lot of people will die from COVID, but clearly the data doesn't support anything close to 140,000 deaths.

Go see for yourself then. Sorry that I didn't feel like making a screen shot for every single day after Feb 8th (which is why I said Feb 8th on) but it is on every single one going forward to present. That doesn't change that the first sentence in the notes is: The data in recent weeks are incomplete. That ended with a period then goes on to say that 60 percent of the deaths are reported within 10 days but no where does it say that the other 40% are ever submitted. Maybe that is what they mean by incomplete? Now, go scroll over all other data points prior to Feb 8th and that note is not on any other point.
I am honestly curious here, what is the number of deaths needed for people to say it is serious? This bar seems to keep moving but I don't understand the end game of polarizing all of this and what good it does anyone to either inflate or minimize reality. It is what it is so why not just move forward and figure out what we need to do?

 

[Reveal1]

Go see for yourself then. Sorry that I didn't feel like making a screen shot for every single day after Feb 8th (which is why I said Feb 8th on) but it is on every single one going forward to present. That doesn't change that the first sentence in the notes is: The data in recent weeks are incomplete. That ended with a period then goes on to say that 60 percent of the deaths are reported within 10 days but no where does it say that the other 40% are ever submitted. Maybe that is what they mean by incomplete? Now, go scroll over all other data points prior to Feb 8th and that note is not on any other point.
I am honestly curious here, what is the number of deaths needed for people to say it is serious? This bar seems to keep moving but I don't understand the end game of polarizing all of this and what good it does anyone to either inflate or minimize reality. It is what it is so why not just move forward and figure out what we need to do?

I respect your view, but I'm not saying 'it's not serious'. I wear a mask, practice social distancing etc. because it makes logical sense after carefully listening to a variety of viewpoints, not because someone has whipped me up to hysteria either to wear/not wear as a political statement or virtue signal. Statements like 'more people killed than Vietnam war' are emotional statements and they create doubt and distrust at any time, but particularly when not proven to be truthful.

 

[Andy D]

Simply put, questioning everything is incredibly stupid and a massive waste of time and energy. I know teachers told you to question things to make sure you weren't believing incorrect information. They were wrong. They did a shitty job of teaching you what you're actually supposed to do. The goal was to keep kids from blindly believing information. The actual result was a bunch of adults questioning everything and then landing on whatever information feels right. That's not the correct end result. You're supposed to say "Hey, should I be wearing a mask? Let me do research. Oh wow, every credible medical professional and organization in the world says I should. End of discussion." Instead you're searching Youtube for people to disagree with consensus, professional opinion.

Imagine if I walked into your sign shop and you told me to use printed cast vinyl with cast overlay for a sign project and I googled for 10 hours to find some random person saying painted signs are the only things that last and all vinyl is garbage and a waste of money. That opinion is going against professional, consensus opinion. Imagine how frustrated you'd be dealing with an individual like that. Imagine how stupid you'd think they were.

People are not behaving. People have their masks barely on their face. People are having family parties and graduations. People are gathering for 4th of July. Beaches are packed. Bars are full (even though they're supposed to be closed). That's not even talking about work related conditions.

I agree about people being dumb with the gathering and not wearing a mask, but if you reread my post, it was meant to convey: We should be following protocol, but we should also be questioning what we're being told by the experts and politicians, when things are not adding up... So let's not get uptight when people are questioning it in this forum.

And yes, conventional wisdom should be questioned every single time! I don't know about you, but if my loved one gets cancer, I'm not going to just go with conventional wisdom, because they get it wrong all the time, especially in biology.
Example: for years the experts were telling people that if they were going to be out in the sun even a few minutes they should wear sunscreen... And now we're seeing all of the effects from that overreaching advice from the "experts" , it's
causing internal cancers, deformities, weak bones, and depression.

There has been a push in the last 20 years of this whole "sit-down, shut-up & do what the experts tell you to" and if you question it, you're a stupid denier.

https://brightside.me/wonder-curios...-your-body-if-you-dont-get-enough-sun-485260/

 

[Andy D]

But the end of the article says to wear sunscreen?
My money is on the lack of vitamin D and stuff like colorectal cancer have more to do with the guy who eats sh*t all day and never goes out to exercise, not sunscreen...
I do love debates on this forum, much more polite than the comments section on youtube...

I love debating too, when it's against someone who is in it to test an idea, not win at all cost... I learn much more from being proven wrong.
I first heard about the sunscreen thing on a podcast, and they went a lot more in detail... from what I remember:
It's very hard to get enough vitamin D3 through just what we eat, we need doses of sunlight on a regular basis.
If you're fair skin, you should try to get it in multiple-mini doses in different parts of your body.
The important thing is to not cause inflammation, which is almost always ultimately the catalyst of cancer...
But this is from memory so take it with a grain of salt.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I agree about people being dumb with the gathering and not wearing a mask, but if you reread my post, it was meant to convey: We should be following protocol, but we should also be questioning what we're being told by the experts and politicians, when things are not adding up... So let's not get uptight when people are questioning it in this forum.

And yes, conventional wisdom should be questioned every single time! I don't know about you, but if my loved one gets cancer, I'm not going to just go with conventional wisdom, because they get it wrong all the time, especially in biology.
Example: for years the experts were telling people that if they were going to be out in the sun even a few minutes they should wear sunscreen... And now we're seeing all of the effects from that overreaching advice from the "experts" , it's
causing internal cancers, deformities, weak bones, and depression.

There has been a push in the last 20 years of this whole "sit-down, shut-up & do what the experts tell you to" and if you question it, you're a stupid denier.

https://brightside.me/wonder-curios...-your-body-if-you-dont-get-enough-sun-485260/

Where do you find this stuff? No normal dermatologist or dr would ever get behind this. The only thing that has been shown is susnscreen showing up in the blood but they have not seen any negative effects from it. The damage and cancers that are caused from lack of sun protection are real and extremely common.
A lot of this far out conspiracy stuff is paying these people that make it a pile of money.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Double post

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I respect your view, but I'm not saying 'it's not serious'. I wear a mask, practice social distancing etc. because it makes logical sense after carefully listening to a variety of viewpoints, not because someone has whipped me up to hysteria either to wear/not wear as a political statement or virtue signal. Statements like 'more people killed than Vietnam war' are emotional statements and they create doubt and distrust at any time, but particularly when not proven to be truthful.

I understand what youre saying and agree somewhat. I just dont see being fired up jist from the news, it seems to be more people on social media and passing dumb emails getting each other all riled up.
What drives me crazy is people saying that the MSM is creating hysteria yet their news is saying the democrats created this to destroy trump..... which is creating hysteria. News is always dramatic, try watching cspan or the bbc though and youll be asleep in 5 minutes. I think the world needs a time out from the internet for a few months and bring back the actual newspapers. Read it for 20 minutes then go live your life. Nobody spent their entire day talking news crap or conspiracies after reading the paper.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Now that we are on screenscreen... I only put it on if I'm going to be out over 30 mins. I like the feeling of warm sun on the skin...its instinctual. Then again I'm not 80 years old with melanoma yet.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Now that we are on screenscreen... I only put it on if I'm going to be out over 30 mins. I like the feeling of warm sun on the skin...its instinctual. Then again I'm not 80 years old with melanoma yet.

Years of south florida caught up to me starting in my early-mid 30s, almost out of nowhere. I wish I could go back and be more proactive about sunscreen. Getting burned and cut isnt a bunch of fun.