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Yes Bob, what my fellow Tennessean said 
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tipping UPS or fed/Ex driver for holidays
- Thread starter WeekendDirectionals
- Start date
Yes Bob, what my fellow Tennessean said 
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
Fallacy? I think not. A fallacy is, by definition, an error in reasoning.
Every human being is responsible for its own condition. You might not want to accept that premise, but it is the case. Couple that with the proposition that you always have a choice, true regardless of whether or not you accept it. From these it follows as the night unto the day that everyone is what they have chosen to be. Not in one big choice perhaps, like I choose to be poor, I choose to sweep floors, etc. rather everyone is the sum total of all of the choices they have made to date in their lives.
No fallacy, merely an exercise in simple sentential deduction. Just so you know, in a deductive argument if the premises are true, which they are, and the argument form is valid, which it is, then the conclusion
If someone is working at some less than desirable job, it's what they have chosen for themselves. I refuse to be responsible for someone else's choices.
Ah, so in order to not be 'negative' something must leave you warm and fuzzy, perhaps thinking of puppies, lollipops, and balloons? Otherwise it's consigned to the scrapheap of negativity?
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
In this case it is. In order for your statement to be true, it has to be true in every single instance. It is not. I know of several that they do what they do in order to put food on the table, not because they wanted to do it. Or it's a life choice that they would have made.
I guess the real issue is what is meant be "choice". Do they take that job because it's what they wanted to do or did they take that job, because the alternative is worse? If it's because the alternative is worse, than is it really a choice?
In every single instance, a person is responsible for their own condition is that what you are telling me?
I'm sure everyone that were displaced by storms (or other natural disasters) it was their own fault for that condition that they are in. Even if they did build their homes and businesses in flood planes. They chose what happened.
I'm sorry, I don't buy that.
I'm not all warm and fuzzy, but I don't buy that.
Some do make their own beds yes and at times it's hard to tell who is who, so I guess you are error-ring on the side of caution. I can by cynical at times too, but I'm not to the point where I believe that is the case all the time. Hell, I've seen it in my own family (not my immediate one mind you).
As you see it in this case, I'm sure.
I'm sorry, but I wouldn't chose for myself to work at some undesirable job. I might have to do so for my family, but I wouldn't have chosen it for myself.
No one is talking about being responsible for someone else condition or "adopting them" or in any manner fully supporting them. I don't consider the little holiday gifts that I have reserved as my customers (or vendors) as such. But if there is a little extra, I don't mind helping someone out or just doing something thoughtful. That's it. I'm not talking about sending their kids to college.
No, it can be neutral in tone as well. It doesn't have to be positive.
I get the feeling that you tend to think of things as all or nothing, black and white etc. Not really how the world works. It can be good in theory, but it's not how it works.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
I think that's what we are really talking about here. Just something a little thoughtful, especially if they do go above and beyond as "you" see it in their service, which is something that quite a lot of us do for our customers compared to the big places that are our competition and can't provide that type of "extra care".
Hell, I just would settle for a thank you in that case, but I get a little extra "tip" every now and then. Sometimes cash, sometimes it's a gift card, sometimes it's holiday treats. Just a little nice gesture. I certainly don't think that they are responsible for my "condition".
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
It most certainly is a choice. Different from choosing vanilla or chocolate only in degree, not in kind. That something is a choice that any sane person would make does not make it any less a choice. As long as an alternative exists, there is a choice.
The part you fail to grasp is not the choice betwixt taking some menial job or whatever alternative might await, but the sum total of all of the choices you have made that have lead you to this particular choice. It is not fallacious to assume that had those previous choices been different you wouldn't be presented with this choice.
Completely. Let me take the notion of choice to the next level. I'm hesitant to do this because at first glance it sounds desperately tautological, but it's not. If you've walked the necessary philosophical road, you might understand it. If you haven't, it will appear as nonsense. Nonetheless, here it is...
You always have a choice, except when you don't have a choice.
If a big rock falls from the sky and crushes you, you have no choice. Contrariwise, if you choose to live where the probability of natural disaster is greater than at some other location, then you made a choice.
Perhaps an informal paraphrasing of the principle of 'choice except when not' is that you may not be responsible for the cards you're dealt but you sure a hell are responsible for how you play them.
Well then, that settles it, eh? You don't subscribe therefore it cannot be the case.
A choice nonetheless. Your reasons for choosing as you do are your own but you must necessarily accept responsibility for any outcome regardless you how you rationalize your decision.
J
john1
Guest
I'm pretty sure UPS drivers make a good amount of money, Tipping is not needed IMO.
DizzyMarkus
New Member
Again what does how much you make determine a thankful gift or thoughtful gesture of appreciation?
Markus
Markus
Pat Whatley
New Member
J
john1
Guest
UPS drivers are just doing their jobs, You tip waiters because it's just what you do if they did a good job. Not UPS drivers.
They make plenty of money, I just don't think tipping them would be appreciated even at the holidays. Typically this has proven correct in situations i have been in. Someone who doesn't make as much would appreciate it much more i would think.
My opinion is my opinion, If you don't agree with it i could care less.
DizzyMarkus
New Member
I mearly asked a question about your response -- there sure are some touchy people around here-- sorry if your feathers got ruffled-- it was a serious question not poking fun! :Oops:
Markus
J
john1
Guest
I'm not ruffled at all lol
No biggie.
No biggie.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
It may not be fallacious to make the assumption, but that does not in of itself mean that the assumption is a correct one to make.
Your assumption, as I'm understanding it, is that they are directly responsible for everything that has lead to them dealing with whatever issue during this point in time.
That may be indeed be the case in some instances, however, not in all. That's the issue with your assumption that I have.
Oddly enough, I do agree with that. But you are taking it beyond the scope of that. You assume that in every instance for everyone there is a choice. In order for that to be true, everyone would have to know all the facts before hand and how the events would play out. Not all the time mind you, there are some assumptions that people could make that might have lead them to another decision that they could have reasonably have made, but not every time and it's those instances that your thesis doesn't account for and where it falls short.
No, it means exactly what is stated. I don't subscribe to it. It could still be the case and I could be wrong, which is why I participate in these "discussions" to learn, to grow. I'm not as close minded as you might think.
But, it may not have been of my choosing that I was in that position like your thesis dictates. How I handle it and how I move on are indeed my responsibility, how I got there may not.
Best as I can figure is that as long as they do their job that is commiserate with their pay then it's good enough. That's what I can figure from bob's point of view. I could be wrong, but that's what I'm reading into it.
I don't care so much if they choose not to do it or to do it. What really does concern me is that they choose to vilify or strongly criticize my doing it.
I don't consider it bribery if they initiated with the above and beyond service. There are some people that are really good at service and taking care of people. That takes a special person. I see what some of them get from customers that probably think along the lines of bob and yet that still march on. I wouldn't be able to do that. To me, it's worth showing a little extra of appreciation.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Cooks/Chefs are typically higher up on the totem though. Not always, but they typically are.
However, you do have to realize that the servers are the ones on the front lines. The cook screws up, the servers are going to be the ones that get the brunt of it. Even if the cook didn't screw up, but he customers like to pretend things are bad in order to get the free meal. I feel bad for the servers that have to put up with those people.
Typestries
New Member
I see it differently. We depend on our UPS driver. She comes early, bends the stupid little UPS rules for us, and picks up extra late. All of these things allow us to provide better service to our clients, and in turn grow our business and our bottom line. So, yes, I recognize that with a decent christmas gift over $50.
VolunteerSign
New Member
Using your own reasoning Bob, the guy that gets smushed by the big rock falling from the sky had a choice. He could have CHOSEN to stand 6 feet to the left before the rock fell...he could have CHOSEN to look up in time to see the rock and move. Heck he could have CHOSEN to be at home tipping his UPS driver and been a hundred miles away.
Sorry Bob Scrooge...try again...bah humbug.
bob
It's better to have two hands than one glove.
Sigh, I can only quote the late and sometimes great R.A.H. "Never try to teach a pig to sing. Not only is it a waste of your time but it annoys the pig."
Are you really as obtuse as you appear or is it just part of your scene?
