Various Sign Making Questions

[Just Another Sign Guy]

Good post isign.
My point? Mellisa will bring a eye for proportion and balance as well as a keen understanding of lighting to the table based on her training and skill .

let's rephrase that a little ...Melissa MAY bring an eye for...blah blah blah.

i would say that the easiest crossovers into our industry are graphic designers and commercial print professionals...and i have seen MANY graphic designers that can't lay out a simple sign to save their lives.

as a trade we are going to be bombarded in the next few years with photo 'professionals' who add consumable signs to their offerings, the wheels are already in motion, with printer manufacturers offering consumable contracts (where they agree to spend x amount of dollars per year and are given the equipment that we have to purchase) and to be honest the equipment in our trade compared to the photo industry is cheap. my concerns are not about anyone making corrugated signs and banners but it isn't going to take long until they start entertaining the idea and customer requests to install other signs...this is where i am concerned.

it is a problem nationwide and it is going to result in changes to regulations that are going to impact all of us.

isign of all people your post surprises me, yes information is more readily available today than years ago, but yourself being a small do it all yourself
sign company you know that there are things you can not learn on the internet, there are techniques that need to be seen with your own eyes and then practiced.

in my opinion you are not a sign professional simply because you can print and apply vinyl in my opinion a sign professional has an understanding of all aspects of our industry and although you may not have the skillset to do beverage neon work you understand that is work you need to pass on..there are too many ppl that take on any project that comes through their doors if they have the knowledge or skillset to complete (which is why many commercial printers and photo companies are entering the industry, because customers ask for it and they don't have the sense to say kNO we don't do that to things they don't know how to do)...there is a HUGE difference between a shop that simply prints and a full service sign shop. when the printers cross that line without proper licensing, insurance, and most importantly the knowledge to do the work they are doing their customers a disservice which makes it harder on all of us the next time that consumer needs sign services, they have been subjected to pricing structures that make no sense, they have been subjected to craftsmanship that is not up to par, and in my experience the company that did the work is quickly out of business so they have no recourse but they certainly have lost trust in the skills and value of our trade.

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Post #10

Thank you DanStriker. And yes, I do understand that. Im not trying to be defensive.
Let me also say, I have not taken any of these jobs. Just as in photography I dislike when people charge for a service they do not know how to provide. I am going to apprentice at a sign shop in NY this July. These are just things I am trying to learn and get clarification on, I do not have any pending jobs and need quick answers.

I will just search old threads and not ask anything until I have very specific questions.

If you carefully read her posts and look at her "About Me" you will find a fair amount of contradiction that could cause some to be harsh on her.

 

[iSign]

iSign of all people your post surprises me, yes information is more readily available today than years ago, but yourself being a small do it all yourself sign company you know that there are things you can not learn on the internet, there are techniques that need to be seen with your own eyes and then practiced.

Dan, let me clarify my post then. I brought up my NYC background, because I was drawing scale floor plans with fire escape info (and that was something I had a 4.0 GPA in studying hard for years) and for whatever reason, I didn't do beverage neon work at home on the side.. I focused on work I was skilled to preform. Over the years, my skillset has grown. I was employed for 6 years in 3 states & trained in a variety of areas of expertise before I became an owner. Ideally she would also gain similar experience in advance, but could she not also hire a qualified sign professional who needs an employer to run the business end? God knows there are enough of us that suck at business!

...there are too many ppl that take on any project that comes through their doors...
...because customers ask for it and they don't have the sense to say NO we don't do that to things they don't know how to do)


yes, there are too many people like that, but is Melissa one of them, or is she just getting the focus of all this angst because she represents the tip of that iceberg to some of us?

Post #10

Originally Posted by Melissam2505 View Post
Thank you DanStriker. And yes, I do understand that. Im not trying to be defensive.
Let me also say, I have not taken any of these jobs. Just as in photography I dislike when people charge for a service they do not know how to provide. I am going to apprentice at a sign shop in NY this July. These are just things I am trying to learn and get clarification on, I do not have any pending jobs and need quick answers.

I will just search old threads and not ask anything until I have very specific questions.

If you carefully read her posts and look at her "About Me" you will find a fair amount of contradiction that could cause some to be harsh on her.

well, imperfect grammar has been a weakness for me in this industry, but I try to get by.. and I also try to read carefully, with an effort to comprehend a writers intention, even given the probability that the writer could also be guilty of improper grammar at times. To me, the post you quoted reads the opposite of how you interpreted it. I guess only Melissa can tell us what she really meant, but if I change one word, I thought she meant:

These are just things I am trying to learn and get clarification on, I do not have any pending jobs OR need quick answers.

(as in: "do I already have jobs and need quick answers? No, I do not")

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Oh Please Doug.....lets take things at face value. Second guessing someone will get one in more trouble than a Christmas goose. I'm not unfamiliar with her photography and she is obviously a very busy, energetic and independent gal. I give her the benefit side of a doubt that she can and will add a 'Signmaking' side to here repertoire however, It appears at face value that it won't be a real serious venture, but rather a dabbling into. Only she knows the real answer to that. You and I both know that most Professionals in this industry do not like "Dabblers" in the biz as it is those that generally muck things up. Sure, some of the 'Dabblers' get serious and eventually become Pro's but not most, especially when they have a profession that they are already proficient at and enjoy. Like I said, Lets not be so hasty to chastise our brothers......especially for comments based on observations made within the limits of taking something at face value regardless of how wide or narrow the field of view one may possess.

 

[iSign]

wow... I knew Idaho was close to Washington... but never thought it was that close

as for 2nd guessing... I read it & I told you what it said TO ME.
First guess, first read.

when you quoted her, only then did I even consider reading it otherwise...

...after all, when she posted that, she was already on the defensive against comments regarding the long row to hoe, so it only made sense for the "no jobs yet" comment to be held up next to the "not seeking a shortcut" defense... that was "face value" to me... so, as long as the brothers are chastising the sisters, I'll feel free to vote with my conscious, and to me, she is the one who has not earned one iota of my disrespect.

 

[CES020]

Doug, in my opinion, I think that's probably the best post I have ever read from you (and you have many very good posts). I didn't come from the sign world either. I never worked in a sign shop, never served an apprenticeship under some old grumpy bastard that yells at everyone, and never swept up the shop floor from all the work the experienced people created that day.

My background as a machinist (I see there are a few of us on here) has lead me to approach jobs from a logic standpoint and it's worked fairly well for me. I have had experienced sign guys in our shop, working beside me and they watch me and say "Why are you doing it like that, that's not how you're supposed to do it", and then they watch me work and they tell me that my methods are better than what they had learned. I've been on many a jobs that take me 1 hour, and those guys tell me that the "taught" method would have been at least 4 hours work. So who's right? Me? Them?

I don't know, but I do know it gives me a competitive advantage over those that use the "4 hour method" and I'm more than happy to take advantage of that.

So to them, I'm probably a "low baller" on certain jobs. Not because my prices are low, but because I don't have my head up my ass stuck in the "we've always done it like this" mode, which takes more time and costs the customer more money.

I found many comments in this thread laughable. Why? One comment was that sticking printed vinyl on a substrate doesn't make you a sign maker.

Errr.....news flash.....if that's what the customer wanted, you can call it anything you like. I guess if they wanted printed vinyl on a substrate and you had 2 choices, the person that can do it, or the person that can do it that's got a title of "Signmaker" on his desk, I'm not sure how one's different than the other to the customer. Remember the customer? To me, it's not about us, it's about the customer. The fact you spent 10 years in a sweaty sign shop doesn't mean jack to the customer in most cases. They want to know if you can do what they ask and how much it is.

Just my opinion.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

what a joke. CE does simply applying vinyl make you a sign"person" if so politely you have missed the boat there is much more ... much more....

years ago a customer would either give you guidance to provide them with signage or an advertising agency would. today we have ppl thinking they can solve their clients need simply because they own a computer....seriously do you have the knowledge to be designing corporate identity? do you have the knowledge to be implementing marketing strategy? many sign companies are predtending they do now if all you are doing is executing client direction then this doesnt apply to you......and if you doubt their qualifications to do so just look at the 'please help me' threads that thoroughly miss the mark.

 

[Fitch]

There are so many great comments on this thread and some not so good. Some make you laugh and some make you think.

I most certainly can see ALL sides. Let's put "Melissa" aside for one moment as a person. It's not personal against her but rather her intent, or actions that we see almost every day from "newbies" and those wanting to get into the sign biz.

I can see Dave Dranes point and I can see Doug's point. Although they appear to disagree, in fact, I think they are on the same page. Only the method or journey to get to a point varies. Both champion the point of experience. Dave does this from both a personal and historical aspect. Now I have seen the work Doug does, his Letterheads meets, Walldog meets, his tuition with Dan, the research for his router and the emotional turmoil about expanding into a larger floor size.

This thread (like many) has started at one point and gone in a totally different direction with small clips of the original post.

Possibly it's the "Grandfather" syndrome where "things were'nt done like that in my day". Technology has been a boost in terms of ease, but also has a lot to answer for.

Basically there are "signs" and there are "SIGNS". A "sign" can be as simple as a piece of paper with "back in 10 minutes" markered onto it.

We have to concede that digital printers are here and here to stay. They are a tool, along with the rest of the tools that as a professional we should be able to call upon.

The problem that I have is when it is the ONLY tool called upon. A sign shop SHOULD BE and I emphasise SHOULD BE a shop that as CES020 said "The fact you spent 10 years in a sweaty sign shop doesn't mean jack to the customer in most cases. They want to know if you can do what they ask and how much it is."

There are two strings to this: 1) If you can do what the customer wants 2) How much for that service.

I personally would not want to go to a "Doctor" only to find out that they can only treat warts. If it does not have anything to do with warts, then "I can't help you". Doctor is such a generic term. As is "Signs".

How much for the service is another topic all together, but yes the digital age has driven down prices. Everyone is a "signwriter" with a digital printer. Sadly it also has to be said that the "quick $$$" operators of digital printers has totally fu#@ed the industry by very badly specialising in this area. Not even well at it. Just have to look at the portfolios of the "look what I printed today" crap.

There are many special and talented artistic people that enter the "sign game". Those are few and far between. I am not one of them.

The ONLY thing that I get from the posts from the "oldies" is...

"before you learn the tricks of the trade - learn the trade". That is: take the time to learn all aspects of the industry you want to be in. Learn that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Learn not just what to do but what NOT to do.

If one wants to specialise in digital that's fine - not a drama. I hate wraps and will never do it.

I personally like the variety of blends shades etc that digital offers. I do not like the short term longevity of digital. Microns of ink versus two coats of paint. No comparison.

Where it all falls short is this "what the customer wants and wants to pay". Sadly due to many global and societal factors, people - and I am one of them will always want to pay the minimum. That is where it hurts the industry as a whole. I have wholesalers that have rust on the lids of their One Shot from sitting so long.

Each aspect of our industry has it's place, digital, paint, vinyl, airbrush, carved, gilded.

Maybe the time will come when a "sign shop" is a sign shop - able to offer with CONFIDENCE and the right advice a full gambit of signage solutions from pop up displays to reception area to hand painted 3D front building facias.

The seperation if you are a "print shop" is just that.

I understand those that are against the "I wanna get a printer and be in the sign biz" mentality. Sadly, what the "oldies" are really about is this: Many entered the sign game for the love of it. The variety and the skill of each day producing something different. Something that has now been up for 20 years and still looks great. Because it was done right. Because they took the time to learn how to do it right. After many years of learning, they were finally being financially rewarded for their skills. Each developed their own style and knew each others work.

The very reason that they entered into the sign game - "to produce great signs" is slowly (if not already) being eroded by those with no smarts, no business sense, no artistic training, and no technical expertise.

This approach affects us all. Even the newbies. Get professional? Will probably never happen, with the current mindset.

I encourage everyone to get totally imersed in the sign industry newbies included. It's a fantastic industry.
Turn the printer off for a day and make a "sign" some other way - you may just enjoy it.

Most importantly, take a drive down town and see how many GOOD signs there are - truly great signs. Then see how many of them are yours. If none - then you still have a lot to learn, and the industry has a whole lot to offer you in return.

Cheers - G

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

and i just want to throw this out there. The most financially successful growing sign copmany that i know of ...DOES ZERO design..they only produce customer supplied work, they are not masquerading as something they are not, they are not advertising specialists, they do not hold marketing degrees, they simply produce the customers art in a profesional quality manner and I have NOTHING but respect for them.

It is when ppl start masquerading as marketing professionals, advertising gurus and such and they simply are not that I have to shake my head. Look at all of the sign companies that cross the lines that simply are doing their customers a disservice.

 

[Dave Drane]

what a joke. CE does simply applying vinyl make you a sign"person" if so politely you have missed the boat there is much more ... much more....

years ago a customer would either give you guidance to provide them with signage or an advertising agency would. today we have ppl thinking they can solve their clients need simply because they own a computer....seriously do you have the knowledge to be designing corporate identity? do you have the knowledge to be implementing marketing strategy? many sign companies are predtending they do now if all you are doing is executing client direction then this doesnt apply to you......and if you doubt their qualifications to do so just look at the 'please help me' threads that thoroughly miss the mark.

How many times has negative space been (Read Mike Stevens) discussed right here and yet older designers still don't get it. I think one of the very first things taught at trade school was to place an imaginary border around your substrate before doing anything else. The BS about "it's what the customer wants" just doesn't wash, it is just not being able to explain that it is what he needs. YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE IN CHARGE. If they don't cop that then I don't want them as a customer. I don't tell the dentist how I want my teweth drilled so I don't expect him to tell me how high his letters should be on a sign.
Anyone having difficulty with design should do the shopping with the missus and look carefully at the label on every product she picks up. It may just help instead of coming here and pleading for free help with a crap dersign.

 

[SignosaurusRex]

Doug, I said my 2 cents worth and I hope its taken as food for thought, nothing more....nothing less.

 

[CES020]

what a joke. CE does simply applying vinyl make you a sign"person" if so politely you have missed the boat there is much more ... much more....

years ago a customer would either give you guidance to provide them with signage or an advertising agency would. today we have ppl thinking they can solve their clients need simply because they own a computer....seriously do you have the knowledge to be designing corporate identity? do you have the knowledge to be implementing marketing strategy? many sign companies are predtending they do now if all you are doing is executing client direction then this doesnt apply to you......and if you doubt their qualifications to do so just look at the 'please help me' threads that thoroughly miss the mark.

What's a joke is the attitude many of you take towards people you know nothing about. You read into things that just aren't there. Do I think there is a difference in a company that provides banners to PTA groups that say "March 5, Spaghetti Dinner, 7:00pm" and a company that creates an identity or a monument sign?

Absolutely. They are completely different needs and wants and there is room for both.

Some of you are so condescending it's amazing. Every one of you that's complaining about this woman going out on her own, went out on your own at some point in your life. She may have a very special talent and a great eye to really provide some nice work. She might be a complete hack. I don't know and you don't either. But I'd much rather take people that have an interest and try and help them succeed at whatever they want to do in life than tell them "Your a loser and you should quit before you start". What a great attitude to have in life. Let's just slam everyone and tell them to quit before they start because they didn't work at a sign shop for 20 years before going out on their own. Good thing you guys don't give advice for a living. Microsoft, Apple, Dell, Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc, were all started by people that had no practical experience, served no apprenticeships for 20 years. Here's a link to a few more that never would have happened if they took some of your advice:

http://www.forbes.com/2006/07/06/leadership-management-ceo-cz_ph_0706americasyoungestceos.html

She came to the "Newbie Forum" and asked questions. I thought Newbie meant someone new, new to the forum or new to the business. If there's no room for people to start in this business, start at zero and work up, then maybe we can get Fred to delete the Newbie forum. This is what the text says for the description of the Newbie forum : New to the business or thinking about jumping in? Got some basic questions? Ask them here. That's exactly who she is and what she did.

Dan, you asked if I have the knowledge to create a corporate identity. Nope. Do I sell that service to people? Nope. Would I ever? Nope.

You asked if I have the knowledge to implement a marketing strategy? Nope. Do I sell that service to people? Nope. Would I ever? Nope.

For some of you, you seem to think that there should only be one type of sign business. A full service, do it all, start to finish sign company that handles your corporate image and your marketing needs. Sorry to let you know, but not every shop is that or wants to be that. You might think that we all SHOULD be that, but that's your OPINION. I make a living making signs. You need a logo created? I can recommend someone that does great work. You need a mail campaign? I can recommend someone that does that.

I know it's frustrating for some of you that not everyone has 20 years experience, but that's reality. That's life, that's EVERY industry.

Are you all running 4 color presses now? What? You're not? You're running a large format printer instead? Why? Because things change and technology pushes us forward. With that comes lower prices, that's a free market. Don't like a free market? I do. It means I have to work smarter every day, it forces me to be better.

 

[Billct2]

Dan, I believe the USSC has a lot of research and published materials that deal with this topic.

have had almost every city that has contacted me to help write or review their sign code ask me why this does not already exist? why our industry has no prepared something of this nature...

 

[OneUpTenn]

Melissa, I like your personality. Good Luck with your business!

 

[Tim Aucoin]

Hi Melissa... welcome to Signs 101! What a welcome it's been... New people sometimes have a way of "stirring the hive"!! :ROFLMAO:

Reading through all these posts, I don't see that anyone has recommended you purchase a premium membership for a small annual fee. This will give you access to much more info and help during your research.

Good luck, and again... welcome!

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

yes Bill i am very aware of the USSC and thank you...i really appreciate the efforts they make and their overall philosophy..what can i say we are a hard industry to guide/implement change etc.

well CE mad props to you..sounds like you've got it all figured out. to me it will NEVER make any sense to jump into a business that you know nothing about and having been on the equipment sales side of the business at one point in my career it was my experience that the majority of new equipment sales during that period of time were sales to people with NO experience, that read an article, that were going to take over the advertising world and in the long run i know of 2 of those businesses are still in operation today, the majority of them didn't make it past the first year and lost tremendous amounts of money.

in my consulting business i am regularly contacted by sign companies that just can not figure out what they are doing wrong. why they can not become profitable. it is usually a combination of things, primarily lack of any plan (just hoping the business will come to them), offering services that they are not good at (or profitable at providing) they can not say no to their customers, of course we see those who are under financed or who try to grow too quickly taking on payments and leases that are beyond their means...and the other two big traits i regularly identify are lack of experience (producing things in a non professional, non profitable, non quality manner) and lack of knowledge about our industry, thinking that they were successful in a totally unrelated business and that it will cross over into this one...it doesnt always happen.

i was in the unfortunate spot two years ago of being brought into a rather large sign company 30 employee to try and figure out a plan to keep them in business. the owner was very successful in the software industry and had literally read an article on an airplane about the high profit margins in the sign industry and he went in gave his notice and set out to become self employed. this man is extremely intelligent (multiple graduate degrees from well respected universities) he simply didnt know a lick about our industry, literally MILLIONS of dollars were lost, his family suffered greatly in financial ways but in my opinion more in that their father lost his self confidence, his wife seriously doubted his judgement, he was defeated. when we really got down to the nitty gritty and found a way to restructure (reduce overhead severely, focus on areas of hte industry they were capable of doing quality profitable work and most importantly implement a plan, set goals, etc) his heart simply wasnt in it and we helped a group of key employees structure a deal to take over what customer base they had, obtain a few pieces of key equipment and then we liquidated all the other equipment and negotiated out of existing leases and contracts. when all was said and done the owner lost well over half of his net worth.

so unfortunately i have to see the final results. these people are not competition to me and in my opinion they aren't competition to most sign shops. what they tend to do though is devalue the products and perception of what professional sign companies do by not having proper pricing in place, not providing quality products, offering services that they are not qualified to offer, and then usually going out of business leaving any happy customers they had in the position of having to pay to have their artwork recreated, they are now forced to pay prices that allow a sign shop to stay in business..and their unhappy customers think that all sign companies operate the way the old company did..they are reluctant to give deposits, they don't trust your suggestions, and they sure don't want to pay professional prices.

i don't want to see anyone lose their hard earned money. i don't want to see anyone put their family's well being in jeopardy. i would much rather tell someone the reality of what they are thinking of doing (from my perspective) than simply telling them what they wish to hear...we have equipment sales people to tell them what they want to hear and how great their idea is.

 

[10sacer]

Help?

Holy crap!

Would someone please explain to me - LIKE I AM A NEWBIE - just what the Newbie section of the forum is for if not for novices to ask questions?

If this were just 20 short years ago before Al Gore invented the internet and someone like Melissa had a genuine desire to learn more, she would have had to do all the ancillary things that everyone is prescribing - even - God forbid - going to the library. But we live in a fast informational access world and I thought the purpose of this section of the forum was to HELP others. Back when I was in high school driving an MG Midget in south Georgia - I would have killed to have access to the internet for all those crazy little things that you had to learn to fix yourself that weren't ever included in a Chilton's manual. Now all you have to do is a Google search and some guy somewhere will have the answer for you in under a second.

I have searched and searched and I can't find anywhere where there is a primer on how to ask questions on these things. I know a forum is just that - a place for debate and sharing of information and ideas and you get what you pay for, but geez - it sure sounds like there are alot of provincial guys that are scared of anybody new getting into this business - for whatever their reasons are - because its simply more competition.

How hard would it have been to just get 10-15 peoples' opinions/answers on her questions and leave it at that? She probably would have just gone away like half the members on this site and never posted again.

Melissa - if you are sitting there with a big smile on your face whispering the word "A$$HO_ES" - I wouldn't blame you.

I sent you a private message with my answers.

 

[CES020]

Dan, I don't underestimate your experience by any means. Don't think I do, because I'm not.

However, it's all anecdotal information based on YOUR opinion and life experiences. Let me ask you this- how many franchises do you think are bought by people with no experience in that business? The number is VERY high. In fact, I am friends with a person that matches people to franchises. They take all those people who have dreams and hopes of being self employed and match their goals to a business and whatever business matches up is what they recommend.

I've meet several owners of sign franchises, Signs Now, Signs by Tomorrow, Fast Signs, and a couple of others. I've never met a single one of those that was a sign maker or graphic artist prior to starting that business.

I don't claim to have "figured it all out". Never said that, but for every story of failure you post, someone else can post a story of success. So where's that leave us? You know someone that failed, I know someone that's succeeded. Okay, now what?

I know many people in businesses that are idiots and I've watched many of them run their businesses into the ground. Nothing to do with signs. That's a fact of small business, but I'll be damned if I'm ever going to discourage someone from trying to succeed because I saw someone that failed once before.

 

[andy]

Who the hell started that rumour?

Al Gore is a fat American politician

Sir Timothy Berners-Lee is a slim British scientist.

The former talks a lot about global warming whilst consuming gigantic amounts of energy in any number of his vast homes.

The latter invented HTML and the concept of universal connectivity whilst working at the CERN labs in Swiss Alps.

The internet belongs to Tim... a truly great man who donated his ideas for free.

 

[signmeup]

Can you say,"Tangent"?