Vinyl Bubbling when installed on polyethylene tank

[kheebl]

I have a customer who wants some vinyl installed on a 3000+ gal polyethylene tank, one tank was new last fall and the other is new last week. He had another company Install the vinyl last year and the attached pictures are what happened the next day. Tank was empty and brand new at the time. Anyone ever have this happen before, if so what Vinyl should be used so it does not happen again. The Black Vinyl was fine only the maroon vinyl that was affected.

 

[Sign Works]

I have applied Convex High Bond to polyethylene tanks with zero failures.

 

[kheebl]

Ill look into that thanks

 

[tbullo]

We did some water tanks smaller than that. We flame treated it first, kind of like you would do a signicade frame. No problems.

 

[kheebl]

We did some water tanks smaller than that. We flame treated it first, kind of like you would do a signicade frame. No problems.

What vinyl did you use? I am hoping to just do cut vinyl on this Job because it is only 2 color and I don't have a printer yet. Would oracal 751 or 951 work?

 

[tbullo]

751 should work fine.

 

[kheebl]

751 should work fine.

That is what I think I will go with unless someone has a better choice. I think I might do a test piece and see how it goes.

 

[Nuagedesigns]

Working previously in the petroleum industry please check with customer that these are New empty or filled with water and nothing flammable or previously flammable has been in tank before flame treating the tanks for vinyl. Just a simple saftey check as vapors are extremly flammable. I know it may sound silly but always be safe.

 

[visual800]

I had this happen on a brand new lexan face for a florist. I put it on at shop and it was fine next day it looked like this. One week later they were all gone. Could it be possible time will make this go away

 

[Gino]

Perfect example of outgassing, if ya ask me !!

See how it has no objection to doing it with the maroon, but won't mess with the black ?? The outgassing actually determines where and what it wants to attack. It has a mind of it's own. There is no taming this mean spirited animal. We're all at it's mercy.

Call a hand painter. ​

 

[kheebl]

These tanks were bought brand new by customer and the only thing they have held in them is magnesium chloride.

 

[Techman]

See how it has no objection to doing it with the maroon, but won't mess with the black ?? The outgassing actually determines where and what it wants to attack. It has a mind of it's own. There is no taming this mean spirited animal. We're all at it's mercy.

Ya.. it has to be that evil outgassing.. It decided to mess with the installer and just attack one part over another. Beware of outgassing. It is like a terrorist in the night.

 

[GMS Product Manager]

Ya.. it has to be that evil outgassing.. It decided to mess with the installer and just attack one part over another. Beware of outgassing. It is like a terrorist in the night.

We're still talking about the tanks, right? PE will outgas. And if it is sealed and the air expands, it will push the air through the PE. Our Convex high-bond is good. Pitbull and PlaStick have the most aggressive psa. Eventually the bubbles should go away, because the vinyl is also porous.

 

[Techman]

I am sure the high bond vinyl works good.

But ,,

Those bubbles on the tanks.. In my opiniopn.. It is not outgassing. The bubbles are another problem.

Bubbles are almost always caused by the squeegee. The installer squeezes down the vinyl with air trapped under it. After a while the compressed air air pushes the vinyl back up and makes bubbles.

And as you said..
The bubbles will go away after time. The vinyl is not airtight.

ALso, we all know PE is not airtight. As you said it allows vapor molecules to pass through it. That is not outgassing. That is permeating. It is why signs on gas pumps state it is illegal to put gas into a plastic container.
The volume of vapor in those suddenly appearing bubbles on that tank is not caused by some mysterious outgas.

Here is what an enterprising experimenter could do to test the outgassing theory verses a installer technique.

Have a known pickle skin blister maker apply some vinyl on several different types of plastic and pre-painted aluminum. Be sure to use some high grade cast and some calendared. Put the samples under a vacuum jar and pull a vacuum. Be amazed as blisters resembling pickle skin on sign panels appear on one or two of those samples. Would that be Proof positive that the infamous outgassing is 98% a myth.

 

[GMS Product Manager]

I agree. But that is a ton of bubbles. The plastic is new, but not that new, as he stated there was something in the tank before it was purchased. So at this point the plastic shouldn't be out gassing. Did the end user apply the lettering? It's hard for people to retain good squeegee techniques without lots of practice.

If plastic is fresh out of the mold, plastic can outgas. We had an experience a couple years ago with an OEM that was heating new plastic dial gauge mounts that were not enclosed (not pressurized). They outgassed and bubbled up all but one polyester off the product. Of course when the environment changes it can have an effect on the plastic. I believe the 250° heat was the problem.

People with karts and bikes like to put graphics on gas tanks too. With pressurized caps, the fumes permeate the tank walls. It doesn't work for long. On top of that, the plastic becomes saturated with oil and nothing will stick to it. Depending on what was in it, especially petroleum products, you may never get it clean enough for graphics.

 

[kheebl]

The tanks were new with nothing ever filled in them when the graphics were installed. I think that is the problem the new plastic tank was out gassing.

 

[Gino]

So, if this outgassing thing really exists, this means some form of gas is coming out of the face, huh ??

Anyone have a name for this gas/gasses ??
Does it only appear when basically using poor application methods or is it outgassing forever ??
You want me to believe the gas is coming out over certain areas and after a few days or weeks it disappears ??
So, the outgassing only takes place, once vinyl is applied ??
It only starts to outgas, once something is placed on top of it ??
When the faces are masked, it doesn't happen ??
Only after a vinyl, which is porous according to what certain members have said is applied ??

So why did it happen to the marron in this thread and not the black ??
The OP said this was a year old.... or close to it. It was done last year. Looks like it needs more time to pass through the vinyl.
Why, when squeegeeing, does the water not come through the vinyl ??


You people still won't admit, you just aren't squeegeeing properly, huh ?? No one will ever take the blame for their own shortcomings...... just hafta blame someone/something else.


Technically, everything is porous. In theory, there are spaces between electrons and the nucleus of every atom. These are too small for small particles to get through, but I don't think in a day or two, that much gas will show up under a bad application vinyl job.

Running to the 3M site or some other non-neutral company is not going to call it's customers failures. You need to find an independent participant who doesn't have money invested to figure out your silly mistakes are just that..... you're own mistakes.

 

[Techman]

I think that is the problem the new plastic tank was out gassing.

Yes, and bulls spread scat too when they outgas.. :ROFLMAO:

 

[kheebl]

So I Installed some test pieces to the tanks, and good thing I did because the result I got is surprising to me.

Oracal 751 - Bubbles
Oracal 651 - Bubbles
Fellers House brand ShineRite - No Bubbles!

Talked to customer and that is what he wants to go with. (I know its not the ideal material to use but customer is well aware of the durability and if he gets over a year he is happy)

This is the 751 that has been installed less than a month and already bubbling like crazy

 

[Jburns]

Interesting...perhaps you can just use the vinyl as a stencil, and then paint with an acceptable paint for that plasitc? You have the letters and design already...