vinyl, laminate, outgassing and alligator bubbles

[jman]

Just came across this while looking for a certain application tape they made years ago.

http://www.rtape.com/blog-post/testing-for-outgassing?A=WebApp&CCID=17094&Page=39&Items=3

 

[reQ]

Outgassing is a myth.

i will disagree on that one

 

[Techman]

I would like to see just one photo of a liner on acrylic or polycarbonate blistered from outgassing.

Just one. No one ever saw one sheet with a blistered liner that I know of. Has any one ever observed a single photo with a liner filled with bubbles? In all the decades has not one photo been collected?

At one time we used over 10 - 15 sheets a month for several years and never once saw a blistered liner let alone a ruined panel from blisters from outgassing.

No one I ever met personally in a sign shop has ever had a blistered panel from an outgassing panel. Not one has ever told me about or shown me a blistered liner on a plastic panel.

No one has ever posted a photo with a genuine example of a polycarbonate panel blistered from outgassing. Always there has been a reason for the failure other than outgassing.

There is not one photo posted on the entire forum of years of work of a genuine example of a polycarbonate panel blistered from outgassing. Not one. All failures with blisters were from a bad install. Usually a failure is where the installer used some concoction of a home made weasel p!ss along with some mismatched materials.

The escape of some manufacturing gas would be in the pico gram amounts. Not in the amounts shown in the photos posted above. A reading of the manufacturing process with show us that polycarbonate is a themalsetting plastic. It is made by combining chemicals in a chemical reaction. It is not made by mixing a solvent and letting the solvent evaporate out.
In essence polycarbonate is a condensate of a chemical reaction where some poison gases trade a few molecular parts. When done all the leftover gases are changed into something else and removed.

The water movement through it? 1–2 gram·mm/(m2·day) @ 85%–0% RH gradient. anyone can do the math and see it is such a small amount that it would not make a difference even if the panel was soaked in a pool for weeks. . Water absorption is at less than .1% for 24 hours.

There is a layer on the polycarbonate for UV protection. I believe using the wrong cleaning materials attacks that layer and THAT is the reason for some blistering.

Polycarbonate is attacked by acetone and ammonia. Using those as cleaners if more of a problem than outgassing from a virgin panel.

And finally. We all have observed a vinyl panel where the few airbubbles go away after a few days of sunlight. Sign vinyl is not airtight. If it was then those little bubbles would never go away.

These are my opinions on this outgassing deal and is why I feel it is a myth when it comes to an install failure..

 

[signs20]

Poor Advice

There is more nonsense in this thread - primarily from folks who are guessing at a solution. Most are wrong.

The problem IS due to water vapor. This is very well known. I suggested reading about the problem problem from discussions published by vinyl manufacturers. Here is a link to one source:

http://graphics.averydennison.com/c...ics/ap/en/Instructional-Bulletins/IB-1.05.pdf

The type of vinyl has nothing to do with it. Polycarbonate is hygroscopic and does absorb water vapor. And, the vinyl application will bubble if steps are not taken to outgas the vapor..

Acrylic is not hygroscopic and does not absorb water vapor. Acrylic is much better for vinyl applications.

And, few people would take pictures of bad vinyl applications for publication unless they are showing how NOT to apply vinyl.

 

[Techman]

Verification is best done by third party independent studies done by those with no agenda and posses a solid character..

There are people around with chemistry chemical engineering background that say there is not enough vapor to create those sizes and amounts of bubbles on this install.

All one has to do is read the characteristics of polycarbonate.

As for an Avery?

I am done.

 

[tyzero]

Hey Newbie, you were flamed because you probably (I'm guessing) chose this material and did the job all the while undercutting another sign shop. Suppliers will push anything to make a sale. While many of us have paid our dues and set shop rates, new shops open and cut our knees. We explain to customers the correct material and they want cheaper so they seek out someone like you. Inexperienced and uninformed a beginner.
My suggestion to all who want to get into the industry would be to work for another shop. Read bulletins, literature, and ask before quoting any job. The people here are friendly and will help. This is a great library.
Just because someone has the money doesn't mean they are ready to run a shop.

My .02

 

[Bill Modzel]

Year ago I built a small display consisting of a white and a clear piece of acrylic that interlocked and were set on a turntable for a small decal display at a local trade show. After the show the piece was disassembled and put in storage until the next year. When opened up the next year EVERY decal on both sides of the white acrylic were totally bubbled similar to the original post here and none of them on the clear had a single bubble underneath it.

Outgasssing or whatever you want to call it does happen occasionally but rarely. I've only seen in one other time since than but there is no other explanation for what happened on that display in my own shop under identical conditions.

 

[J Hill Designs]

Year ago I built a small display consisting of a white and a clear piece of acrylic that interlocked and were set on a turntable for a small decal display at a local trade show. After the show the piece was disassembled and put in storage until the next year. When opened up the next year EVERY decal on both sides of the white acrylic were totally bubbled similar to the original post here and none of them on the clear had a single bubble underneath it.

Outgasssing or whatever you want to call it does happen occasionally but rarely. I've only seen in one other time since than but there is no other explanation for what happened on that display in my own shop under identical conditions.

but you say it was acrylic, which signs20 says is NOT hygroscopic

btw im with techman.

on the hundreds upon hundreds of polycarbonate sign faces I have made, this has NEVER happened.

bad vinyl, bad lam, bad application technique. 'nuff said.

 

[MikePro]

+1 bad-signshop-choices:
-cheap materials
-poor installation
-salty responses to criticism of above mentioned

 

[DesireeM]

I also "did" use alcohol, dawn, water blend for the wet app, as recommended.

I agree with some that it feels like it could be human error on this one and not due to outgassing or cheap materials. The cheapest of translucent vinyl would not bubble like this just because it's cheap. There is obviously something else at play here. If it was a vapor issue then I'd think this would be a much more common occurrence given the variety of outdoor substrates available for vinyl application. Also, if the issue is that Lexan is hygroscopic then wouldn't it readily absorb and expel water from/to the air constantly with the changes in weather and cause this issue every time it rained?

Did you clean the surface before wetting it and applying vinyl?
Did you use isopropyl alcohol and basic dawn or did you use something fancier?

I'm asking because it looks like something reacted with the vinyl or adhesive pretty consistently through the whole surface. It's not patchy so it makes me think it had something to do with your application fluid mix.

 

[signs20]

This is becoming unbelievable!

You can lead a horse to water....

It is amazing how many people would rather guess and use anecdotal comments instead of doing some basic investigation. I already provided a fairly good reference on this problem from Avery (above). In addition, you can check out 3M Instructional Bulletin 5.7 as well as comments in 3M Bulletin 3630.

Incidentally, 3M has a product specialist for lighted signs who is very knowledgeable about this problem. He has studied it for a long time. Give him a call.

Also, you can read signindustry.com, who states:

"Polycarbonates, for example, which are frequently used for equipment housings, exterior automotive components, outdoor lighting fixtures, and non-automotive vehicle windows, contain just enough water to yield bubbles in the film."
Again, the type of vinyl has nothing to do with this. If you are in humid conditions, you can have this problem. Baking the polycarb before applying the vinyl can help fix it.

 

[Techman]

Myself and a number of other people lived in the deep So. USA. Between New Orleans the East coast of Florida. Especially anywhere South of I-10...
No one living in these areas will ever say there is no humidity. Each summer day it is up to 98 degrees with 98% humidity. Add on that it rains every day at 3PM. The air is steamy all day afterwords. You can see the water vapor leaving the ground. In the morning windows and the grass and every thing else is literally dripping with dew.Some parts of the year it is so foggy at night both inland and at the coast that going outside guarantees one will be wet in minutes. The problem here is drying paint. Not blistering panels. Suppliers have plastic rolled up in the warehouses by the mile. That stuff around in storage has plenty of time to pick up water from the air. Cur panels lay around in shops for weeks and no one has a problem.

If a polycarb panel was absorbing that much water to make blisters as shown above it would be a problem in nearly every job done in every shop in every area South of I-10. Old panels, new panels,, wouldn't matter. No one has that kind of trouble. Drops laying in shops for weeks or months get used with no problems.

Then that water answer does not explain why installers have bubbles on glass installs for that matter. It does not explain pickle skin vinyl on pre-finished aluminum panels such as license plates or trailers. 99.8% of the time the real answer is a inexperienced installer making a mistake.

Yes there are a few that say different. Yes, there may be certain circumstances where a panel blistered. But for the most part that is a very rare instance in any case. So rare that only those who see unicorns would be concerned with a hygroscopic induced ruined polycarb panel. Of course that is only my opinion..

 

[jaylem]

Is there really much difference using per-formulated application fluid?

That is a huge load of water under there. I do not believe it is water in the least. The volume of the blisters is way to high to be water or soap or alcohol..

Personally. I never ever had pickled skin after learning how to correctly apply vinyl apply to polycarbonate or acrylic.

Also, over the years I see so many posts that do not include all the data. Important facts are left out such as people using soap water, or some strange witches brew of a cleaner, or using rubbing alcohol, or mineral spirits to clean or any other of a multitude of errors.

There is more going on here than water vapor.

I might be vested master at sign and graphics application but I've had a fair amount of experience. I've been cutting and applying vinyl for about 10 years. I had started this journey with some training from a very well establish and experienced sign professional that was building signs before vinyl was even considered. He was traditionalist and believed more in paint than vinyl. He had taught me to use baby shampoo and water as application fluid. I've done loads of vinyl on fiberglass, painted substates, and plastics with very few bubbles. Is there really much difference using per-formulated application fluid?

 

[signs20]

Myself and a number of other people lived in the deep So. USA. Between New Orleans the East coast of Florida. Especially anywhere South of I-10...
No one living in these areas will ever say there is no humidity. Each summer day it is up to 98 degrees with 98% humidity. Add on that it rains every day at 3PM. The air is steamy all day afterwords. You can see the water vapor leaving the ground. In the morning windows and the grass and every thing else is literally dripping with dew.Some parts of the year it is so foggy at night both inland and at the coast that going outside guarantees one will be wet in minutes. The problem here is drying paint. Not blistering panels. Suppliers have plastic rolled up in the warehouses by the mile. That stuff around in storage has plenty of time to pick up water from the air. Cur panels lay around in shops for weeks and no one has a problem.

If a polycarb panel was absorbing that much water to make blisters as shown above it would be a problem in nearly every job done in every shop in every area South of I-10. Old panels, new panels,, wouldn't matter. No one has that kind of trouble. Drops laying in shops for weeks or months get used with no problems.

Then that water answer does not explain why installers have bubbles on glass installs for that matter. It does not explain pickle skin vinyl on pre-finished aluminum panels such as license plates or trailers. 99.8% of the time the real answer is a inexperienced installer making a mistake.

Yes there are a few that say different. Yes, there may be certain circumstances where a panel blistered. But for the most part that is a very rare instance in any case. So rare that only those who see unicorns would be concerned with a hygroscopic induced ruined polycarb panel. Of course that is only my opinion..

Nonsense! Do your homework.

 

[mpn]

Couple of quick questions...
How did you install the lamination?

Was it by hand & a wet install or laminator?

If by hand was it after the print was on the substrate?

Just wondering if some info was left out or I missed it.

 

[Gino]

To those of you saying outgassing is not a myth.............

I'm a firm believer, if someone is told their mistakes and fubars are the result of some mystifying problem, they will cling to that excuse, forever. However, it is the smallest of minds which will not look any further to rectify their own f*ckups. Why is it, you can lay a piece of vinyl down on the substrate for 20 applications and have relatively no problems, but these people do it one time, using inferior products and usually dull around the brain department continuously have these dilemmas without explanations, other than they magically appear overnight ?? Then you guys come along and tell them to believe in magic ?? Heck, they don't know how to do it, so do you think they really see the little bubbles they've left behind to begin with ?? They don't know what they're doing and you wanna promote magic ??

Why is it.......... back before vinyl, we would put frisket down, cut it out by hand and load it up with grip flex paint and for days, not EVER, NOT EVEN ONE TIME, was there a bubble to be seen ?? Now, get a load of this........ days, weeks or whenever........ none of the paint flaked off, bubbled or peeled in any way, shape or form. Where was your 3M magical snake oilers,then ??

C'mon, let's get the truth out there. The amount of moisture possibly being omitted with your outgassing is not going to cause a problem like seen above. It is...... and only is............. application failure.

How many completely experienced people do you ever see with this problem ?? You still can't see the pattern here ??

 

[Billct2]

I'm also one of those who has never seen outgassing despite doing polycarb faces for 30 years.
And even it did exist I think it would look more like mild pimples not that mess.
My guess would be the weasel **** app fluid

 

[signs20]

So you have a pizza oven in your shop?

How many people in the world do you think "bake" their sign faces before using them?

I've never seen or had an issue with any sign faces I've ever made in almost 10 years. Wet app, dry app, running through the laminator, etc. Right now we've got a couple 4' x 35' faces in our shop that we did a couple years back and they didn't (just like every other sign face we've produce) experience any issues and we didn't run them through no pizza oven.

I don't think lack of baking is the issue here, despite you trying so hard to prove so.

Commercial sign face companies who vacuum-form faces do heat the poly in ovens and this drives out any moisture. Yes they are big. We try not to use polycarbonate with vinyl films - we use acrylic and that is not hygroscopic.

We did have the problem on a bunch of signs that we made many years ago. They were on poly with film and we had the exact problem. So, I talked to several vinyl manufacturers and they all knew about the problem. Like I said, there is a guy at 3M in the lighted sign department that is very knowledgeable and I had a good discussion with him. 3M knows this problem well, as does Avery. Check it out.

 

[J Hill Designs]

we use acrylic and that is not hygroscopic.

so you dont make faces over 10' long?

 

[Bill Modzel]

No one here is saying that this happens often but some of us have seen it. I've been screenprinting and applying vinyl since the mid 70's, long before we had plotters cutting colored vinyl, and I've seen it happen twice. Once on that display of my own that I posted and once when a dissatisfied customer of another sign shop brought a bubbled sheet in. Just because of this discussion I asked another shop installer whom we do digital prints for if he's ever seen it and he said two times. He's been in installer for this shop for 20+ years.

How many of us have stated to customers that any small bubbles left after an application will usually just disappear in a week or so, and they do. I have a 3'x3' printed Oracal vinyl that I laminated a few weeks ago and got a pile of small bubbles under a section of the laminate because of a bad roller adjustment. I rolled it up laminate side out and set it aside and reprinted the job. I just unrolled it and literally, there is not one bubble visible today. Bubbles don't get larger except temporarily if they are heated up and the air expands, but not like the original picture posted here. It would be next to impossible to duplicate that pattern if you tried to do it on purpose.

It is VERY rare but just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean never happens.

 

[Fastsigns2041]

I'm just shocked that no one is drying their Lexan sheets in their industrial sized sign shop ovens like Avery suggests.

 

[Gino]

:Oops:

Wrong thread about outgassing.

This term is wa-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-ay over used.​