What to buy?

[Letterbox Mike]

We're in the process of adding a flatbed to our lineup and I need some input on equipment. We're looking to stay in the $150k or less range, so we're in the middle to high end range of entry level equipment. We're not really looking for huge volume or to significantly increase our current capacity, more just looking to remove the labor and material of printing to SAV and then mounting to the rigid substrate. We're currently at a point that between labor and materials we can cut those costs by $3-5000 a month by printing directly to the substrate.

Most of what we will print is coroplast, foamcore, PVC, styrene and occasionally aluminum composite boards like Dibond or Alumacorr. We don't require anything larger than a 4x8' bed, rarely, if ever to we do larger boards than that. The ability to print roll-to-roll is attractive to us, but not necessary since we have two other r-to-r machines. We almost definately want to stick with a true flatbed and not a belt machine or hybrid, unless there is something out there in our price range that is truly a good option.

Currently we're looking at the Mimaki JF series and the Gerber Ion. Our other printers are Mimakis so we're familiar with them and am comfortable purchasing another one, we have some space restraints and this thing will require a fairly substantial remodel of our print room since it requires a minimum of about 16'x16', plus material handling room. I know that's not huge for a flatbed, but there are others that require less space and that is a major consideration for us, and we don't need the 5x10 size.

I've read alot of positive reviews of the Gerber, including on here, but it seems to be on the slow side, but I've not seen one print in the real world so it's hard to say for sure. I do like that it's got a much smaller footprint.

Also considering the Oce 300gt or the 350gt, but I don't know alot about them at this point, still waiting on information back from vendors.

Can anybody give me any real world input on any of these? Are there other quality machines in our range that we should be considering as well?

Thanks!

 

[petepaz]

we have been looking in to the flatbeds as well but our digital business has dropped a bit the past few months(good thing we do screen printing and hot stamping also)
but we did not like the results from the ion
the mimaki is nice we also looked at the raster and the agfa
i think the agfa had the best quality then the mimaki then raster
and that is the same order for cost highest to lowest
don't remember which was the fastest but i think of those 3 you can find one in your price range

 

[particleman]

Your situation sounds really similar to ours, we ended up choosing the Agfa Anapurna M series. We started out looking only at true flatbeds, but after seeing the machine in action it suited our needs just as well. We looked very closely at the OCE, but heard stories from more the one source the corrugated adhesion wasn't that great, not to mention the price is much higher. That is not the case on the Agfa. We ruled the Ion out because of the quality and speed of the machine was not up to our needs. The quality of the oce and agfa are almost the same, both very good. The raster (rastek) there simply wasn't enough people with the machines to look at it seriously. You'll find the Agfa has a pretty solid customer base and generally positive reviews.

 

[Letterbox Mike]

I had kind of ruled the agfa out because it was belt fed, but I've not seen it in person either. It looks to be pretty sturdy from what I've seen in pictures though.

How is the speed and durability? What about ink costs? How much room does it really take up (it's hard to tell from literature how much real estate these really consume, none of them are small but alot of times literature is excessive with "breathing room" around the printer... space is at a premium here without remodeling so I have to take it into consideration)?

Do you mind disclosing approx. how much you paid for it? I haven't priced one yet.

I've seen the Rastek H700 in person and it's unimpressive. Looks rinky-dink. I'm concerned about the Gerber's speed too, I need something that can burn through more than 3 sheets in an hour at sellable quality, it doesn't seem to be up to that task. And adhesion on coro is critical, that's 75% of what we'll be printing on.

 

[seaserpent]

Very happy Gerber Ion owner here. We studied this for 2 years before deciding to buy. Came down to Ion or Agfa Anapurna. The main deciding issue was the ability of the ink to stick to corrugated plastic without any prep to the surface other than a quick wipe with a mist of isopropyl alcohol using a flat type mop. Also wanted the best longevity of the ink on corrugated plastic. I am more than satisfied with both at 4 months use. The Agfa, at the time, required surface wash with Muriatic Acid and the ink still did not hold up to tape. With the Gerber you can put any strong tape on top of a coro print and the ink will not come off when pulling up the tape.

The speed has turned out to be way better than I thought. It's not only how fast the surface gets covered by each pass, but how quick it is to do the next job. Throughput! We print many kinds of signs all day long on 4x8 sheets. Takes 20 minutes in production mode and they look great. We get 3 sheets done in just over an hour including switching the substrates. Standby mode with the cool lamps keeps this machine ready at all times and the lamps supposedly last a very long time.

The quality is not as high res as the Agfa, but that issue isn't so important in our type of products. Gerber is releasing a higher res "z" model which we will be willing to upgrade to as only head replacements. Pretty expensive, but worth it in the long run. I was actually surprised at how nice the lower res heads produce. I'm pretty picky with quality and this machine is more than acceptable for it's use.

Printing on magnets is fantastic. Bleed print backgrounds and trim with a knife and the ink is stuck - does not flake off. This is only achieved on digiprint type magnet, which costs little more than standard magnet.

Painted aluminum and most other substrates do equally well. The only materials that don't stand up to the tape test are styrene and ultraboard. However, the ink will not scratch off these.

The last point I'd like to make is the DROP-DEAD-SIMPLICITY of operation of the Ion. For the first month of ownership we came to work everyday giggly about how easy and nice having this unit is. Now at four months, I sometimes chuckle at how how happy I am with this purchase.

 

[particleman]

Our Agfa passes the tape test great without any special surface prep other than alcohol. The lamps need to be on high setting when printing but it works well. You could say that was a deal breaker and we got specific samples from Agfa before committing on the machine.

Speed on the Agfa, 15 minutes per 4x8, so 4 an hour at production speed 720dpi

 

[Fuzzbuster]

go for the Anapurna

its a good printer and well in your price range

Heck send them some files to print to see YOUR results before comitting

 

[10sacer]

UV printer

I used to sell Cromaprint 22UV systems for DuPont here in the Southeast. One of my jobs before moving into sales was as Technical Support Manager and we did alot of research on EVERY machine in the field at the time. I have a chart that breaks down every single printer characteristic from system cost, ink cost, service contract cost, # of heads, ink type, etc. This list has been whittled down in the past 3 years due to industry consolidation and some folks exiting the business (like DuPont).

Its a very difficult question to ask on these forums because nobody knows your exact business model or customer base. Try asking 10 people what the best car is to buy - you'll get 6 or 7 different answers. You seem to have narrowed the field down a bit by having a price cap - that helps.

My recommendation is to buy the most machine that you can afford. Always cheaper to run a second shift. Big question to ask yourselves and your customers is this: will they be satisfied with CMYK output or do you need the dilutes (Light Cyan and Light Magenta) to get really smooth tones - once again - depends on your customer needs. This answer will REALLY narrow your results. Do you need White Ink? What you think you need now may not be what you need in a year. You kind of need to sit down and write a business plan to help you justify what you are doing with a plan to make it successful. Also, what technology are your competitors offering? Be different!

I could go on and on because I've been doing this for a long time.

Anyway, I have operated the Oce 350, the Rastek h700, the Gerber ion, the Mimaki's and most Vuteks. I recommend turning into Carnac the Magnificent and doing business with someone you think is going to be around to support you. This market is going to level out into two sectors - the Big Boys and the Wanna-Be's. Big Boys are HP, Vutek, Durst, Fuji and maybe AGFA. Everyone else is a Wanna-Be. The reason this is important is totally around ink research and technical support. Big Boys can afford a much broader tech. support structure because they have a broader range of equipment in the field - simple supply and demand. Technical support is the biggest area of concern in the UV print arena.

Anyway, I am posting in another thread a series of questions to ask your manufacturer before buying a printer. I pulled a bunch of info from several sources and came up with the lists for my customers when I was with Dupont. Still a very relevant series for those new to the game.

Good luck,

Sean

 

[mac_man_luke]

Sounds like the agfa would fit the bill well for you

i know here in australia there have been some good deals on the agfas eg Mw for under 120k

 

[Steve Werner]

I sell plastics primarily to the digital market. The printers I see the most in the UV arena are Vutek, Fuji ( coming on fast ), Inca, Agfa, Gerber and DuPont. The new Mimaki LED UV sounds very interesting but don't know much about it. It would seem that one of the drawbacks of some of the UV printers out there is the " cooking " of material. As far as the footprint of the machine my feeling is go as big as you can. It will allow you more versatility in what you produce. I don't think I would even look at a solvent printer any longer.

 

[seaserpent]

Our Agfa passes the tape test great without any special surface prep other than alcohol. The lamps need to be on high setting when printing but it works well. You could say that was a deal breaker and we got specific samples from Agfa before committing on the machine.

Speed on the Agfa, 15 minutes per 4x8, so 4 an hour at production speed 720dpi

We visited an Agfa dealer, spent time with actual Agfa tech and produced samples from the Agfa printer on corrugated plastic, styrene, painted aluminum and ultraboard (styrene surface). Agfa used alcohol and Muriatic acid on coro and it did not hold up to the tape test. Other substrates - vinyl, foamboard held up well. I was provided phone numbers of current Agfa owners to check it out. They shopped all over the country to find coro boards that have high dyne levels and it was a hit or miss so they were shopping for a large expensive machine to prep coro boards with proper dyne levels before printing. The ink did not stay on coro.

Agfa at the time was working on a new ink formula. I hope they get it right, because the Anapurna is a really nice machine producing absolutely beautiful images at great speed. We plan to add one to our company in the future. For the right substrates it appears to be an excellent choice.

We bought the Gerber Ion and print to most of these surfaces all day with very little issues on stock materials from the local sign suppliers.

 

[mmorse]

So out of curiosity what did you go with?

 

[SignManiac]

Unfortunately for HP they took on the Colorspan line and inherited that nightmare but I can say from real shop experience, their new and improved FB950 has been an outstanding machine. We've been running it everyday since last February without incident. Quality, speed, and most importantly for me...dependable. Price is at that $150k for the printer. I opted to go another $15k for the roll to roll option and am glad I did.

You're more than welcome to call me with specific questions. Previous bad press and all, this machine works as advertised.

 

[Letterbox Mike]

So out of curiosity what did you go with?

Haven't made a decision yet... ugh. Honestly leaning towards the Gerber IonX. They're selling factory refurbished demo units (new heads, ink lines, 2 yr warrant) for $60k installed. Between the price and the fact that it fits in our shop without having to undertake a massive remodeling project it's a pretty attractive unit. Still having a hard time deciding though...

 

[mmorse]

Haven't made a decision yet... ugh. Honestly leaning towards the Gerber IonX. They're selling factory refurbished demo units (new heads, ink lines, 2 yr warrant) for $60k installed. Between the price and the fact that it fits in our shop without having to undertake a massive remodeling project it's a pretty attractive unit. Still having a hard time deciding though...

Okay let me just warn you about the Ion.
From my understanding their are those out there who have had success with it.
We have had our for a year now and regret buying it. We have lost way more money on it than we've made AND are having to replace signs because they are now fading. Not only fading but the ink is literally running down the signs.
We have had too many parts replace to even count along with dozens of visits from techs, the machine.
In looking at other forums and speaking with other sign makers from Texas to California, we are not the only ones.
Dont' want to be negative, but just giving you a heads up.
Good luck in your decision.

 

[Letterbox Mike]

I appreciate the heads up. It's interesting, so far you're the first actual user I've heard say anything bad about it. The general consensus is it's a great printer for what it is... not a speed demon, not a photo printer, but a good all around sign shop flatbed for a lower-volume user.

How old is your machine? Who did you buy it from? I'm interested in hearing more about your experiences with it.

 

[hydo1]

I've heard a lot of good things about the Ion in general. I think mmorse's problem is the first I have seen about bleeding inks or fading. That sounds like a really bad curing problem, or maybe bad inks?? In theory the inks should continue to cure when outside exposed to sunlight. I know that the Gerber Inks and Curing system requires very specific temperature control in your building, so keep that in mind.

We've had a flatbed (Colorspan) installed for 3 years and it has totally changed the way we do business. I can't recommend them enough.

 

[mmorse]

We are in contact with a couple other Sign shops across the country who are experiencing the same problems we are. In fact if you go to yahoo groups and search out GerberIon you will find a lot more info about the fading issues others are having.
It's great for temporary signage if that is your main target market, but as far as long term signage, I'd have to strongly discourage it.
Our Ion is in climate controlled room with a $7,000 A/C system dedicated solely to it, as well as a dehumidifier and air purifier. This baby is completely pampered.
We have had more than a dozen tech visits as well as 3 engineers on site, one for a week. We have had motherboards, gantrys, ink heads, lamps...well too many parts to list, all replaced. Gerber doesn't seem to know whats going on. Their service has been great, but without a warranty it would break us.
We have spoken with them in regards to the fading, they deny knowing of anyone else having the issue, which we know to be untrue because we are in contact with their other customers having the same problems.
Again not trying to shoot em down but think it's only fair that you know what others are dealing with in relation to this machine.

 

[mmorse]

To answer the last part of your question our machine is 1 and 13 days old. We purchased the machine through Reece Supply.

 

[SignManiac]

See if Gerber will replace your current ION with a brand new machine and see if that resolves the issues.