What would you do?

[SD&F]

Take a stand and file a complaint somewhere, just because it's not right. It's just one person, but it's not fair. As in everything else most people just accept things without question(follow like sheep). It's those of us who actually push to get things made right
for the rest. I could never do business that way and I would never accept business that way to me. Let them see your numbers$$$. If that doesn't sway them to accomodate, then find someone else.

 

[Sooner Printing]

Digital cards are usually ran 24 up on a 12x18 sheet.. We always run 5 sheets over to compensate for the handful lost during trimming.. No one should order a certain amount of cards and end up receive less than the Order is for.. At least not at my shop!

 

[jrsc]

the over/unders policy is pretty standard in the promotional products and forms business but you usually don't see it as much with general commercial printing. I also hate the policy. If you order 1000 you should get at least 1000 and if they have too many they shouldn't charge you extra. I almost never see unders. My problem is everybody gives me the full 10% overs and charges for them. And I refuse to pass that charge on to my customers because I won't charge them for something they didn't order.

As for the box looking like it was missing cards, extra room doesn't always mean you're short. We print business cards and have one size box for 500 cards. Depending on the paper the customer chooses for the cards they either fit just right, are jam packed, or there is some extra room. On 1000 cards like you ordered there could be a 1 - 2 inch difference in the size of the stack based on the paper used.

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

Today the box of replacement cards came. I got about approximately 200 cards in the box. I didn't count them because we only really needed 70 or so cards to replace the ones that were missing in our first order. When we compared these to the other cards, they don't look anything alike...at all. The print is grainy and halftoned in appearance on the new cards and the UV coating is thin and has lines through it like it was brushed on. In general, they look TERRIBLE in comparison.

I will be finding a new printer, sadly. I really thought we had a winner here but I guess our business really doesn't matter, as they couldn't take the time to be bothered with fulfilling my order correctly.

 

[petepaz]

our policy has always been +/- 10% but normally is over and we only charge for what we ship. i would say in the 22 years i have been here maybe 3 orders were shipped short
, that i can remember. i also always noticed a similar policy from other printers when we sub out jobs.

 

[MindsEyeOpen]

In some of our departments we have the 10% +/- rule. However, we only invoice our customers for the quantity shipped. In my department where we do smaller runs we still have the 10% policy but we hardly ever use it. The only time I have ever used it was if there was a problem and we were on a tight deadline. If I run 100 labels and 10 of them are bad but they HAVE to ship today, I'll go ahead and ship 90. But I always email the customer to let them know and offer to send the others with their next order.

 

[FatCat]

Well, if this is industry standard for offset, I've never heard of it or noticed it until this thread.

Seems to me if you give a 5% or 10% +/-, you're taking the easy/lazy way out. If anyone was ever shorted it showed up on your invoice as 933 and you paid for 933 and the back ordered was usually delivered.... on them for the screw up.

So, let's take this kinda business model and break it down.

If someone orders 10 signs from us, I can bill them for all 10, but only deliver 8 or 9 ??

When they go to put the signs up and come up two short, I just tell them..... it's written in your contract with us.... we can do this.

Guy orders 35 jerseys for his softball team. I give him 32 shirts. What do the last 3 people wear on opening day ??

Guy has 15 trucks in his fleet and I letter 14 and he says, you didn't letter them all........ ?? I can just say, too bad, it's in your contract. Read the fine print.​

So, realistically, I can't do it, but a printing company may ?? C'mon, that isn't fair and y'all know it. This was not an industry standard years ago. I worked in that field, too, along side of one of my best employees. It's a recent fatman's lazy way of doing lousy business. I'd never do business again with someone who shorted me and then hid behind some stoopid disclaimer.

Gino, (and others) if you spent a little time around an offset press you'd begin to understand why these policies are in place. Up until very recently an offset press operator was much like a sign painter in that he/she had a very specific skill set that couldn't be learned in short order. The knowledge/experience of the operator directly affected the output of the press. I would hazard to say with the new technology in new presses these days it is not nearly as necessary as it was back in the 70's or 80's or even the 90's. But the over/under policy has been around so long that most offset shops probably continue to use it out of habit, if not added insurance.

Without making this sound long-winded an offset press doesn't print like any of our current digital print devices. It was until very recently a very "manual" process that took a trained eye and confident operator to achieve desired results. Understand when you start up a traditional offset press, it usually took dozens, if not hundreds of sheets to "make-ready". At that point the ink levels, water levels and feeding/delivery were all correctly adjusted and THEN you could start printing sheets that would actually be sold to your customer. Then as the run continued the press operator would have to constantly do checks to keep the press adjusted correctly as it ran to keep the prints looking consistent. Sometimes runs would go smoothly, sometimes not. Usually shorter runs were most difficult because you had to nail the color within a very narrow window - even knowing you were going to waste 100 sheets to print a job of 400 pieces. Meanwhile, a longer run of 100,000 pieces would be more forgiving with more leeway if you ruined a few hundres prints. So, this is where the allowable overs/unders policy came into place. If you absolutely had to have 10,000 pieces and no less, then more than likely the offset shop would print 5-10% more to ensure you had them, which of course would cost you more than their regular 10,000 piece price with given overs/unders.

Again, most customers knew and understood this policy when I worked in the field, but I feel today people who don't know just assume an offset press runs like their wide format printer, or copier. (Punch up 125 copies and thats what you get.) Newer technology and improved systems make them easier to operate with less waste, but you still get better results from a true pressman that can look and simply knows what needs to happen as the press runs.

OK, enough of the history lesson...:Sleeping:

 

[FatCat]

Today the box of replacement cards came. I got about approximately 200 cards in the box. I didn't count them because we only really needed 70 or so cards to replace the ones that were missing in our first order. When we compared these to the other cards, they don't look anything alike...at all. The print is grainy and halftoned in appearance on the new cards and the UV coating is thin and has lines through it like it was brushed on. In general, they look TERRIBLE in comparison.

I will be finding a new printer, sadly. I really thought we had a winner here but I guess our business really doesn't matter, as they couldn't take the time to be bothered with fulfilling my order correctly.

I very much doubt they re-printed 200 cards on an offset press. I would bet they did the 200 on a digital press. (Not the same thing and would explain the grainy appearance and color shift.)

 

[Gino]

Yeah, it was back in the mid 70's that I helped run offset presses.

I believe the difference of today and years ago is one simple word. M O N E Y.... with a close second of P R O F E S S I O N A L I S M

See back then, if a job was being run and we did 120 up and they needed 5,000 cards, we'd start with 45 sheets. This single feat alone is what assured us we'd get the total we needed, to complete a real job.

However, doing the same math today, these print houses know you need 41.7 sheets. So, right off the bat, they use the lower number to save money and hide behind that silly 10%+/- rule. Now, if any rejects are encountered, that makes the count lower.

Anyway, according to your policy.... why or how did the OP here end up with two orders back to back shorted ?? Seems this is more routine than what you think. If every order is shorted, that is a company I would take to the carpets and create a new a$$hole. That's pure thievery in my opinion..... if y'all accept it..... you're as silly as the rule. No harm meant towards anyone in particular, but that's pure nonsense to order anything and pay for what you're not getting cause someone decided to rip you off in writing.

 

[FatCat]

However, doing the same math today, these print houses know you need 41.7 sheets. So, right off the bat, they use the lower number to save money and hide behind that silly 10%+/- rule. Now, if any rejects are encountered, that makes the count lower.

Anyway, according to your policy.... why or how did the OP here end up with two orders back to back shorted ?? Seems this is more routine than what you think. If every order is shorted, that is a company I would take to the carpets and create a new a$$hole. That's pure thievery in my opinion..... if y'all accept it..... you're as silly as the rule. No harm meant towards anyone in particular, but that's pure nonsense to order anything and pay for what you're not getting cause someone decided to rip you off in writing.

Gino, I understand where you're coming from, but remember it's 5% not 10% and this person is using an on-line wholesaler not a local brick and mortar print shop that would charge more for the same order, yet more than likely be certain you get at least as many as you ordered and at a quality you'd expect.

I guess my point is that you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want rock-bottom offset print prices then you'll likely deal with that 5% policy from most online vendors. Or you could use a local shop who'll print them right in-house and just the exact amount you need, but you'll pay more from them and therefore make less money than dealing with the schmucks at 4-over or VistaPrint. Right?

Not to sound bitter, but most of this online garbage and cut-throat pricing is what killed most of the legitimate offset work (and my job) for the small to mid sized printers across this country.

And for the OP, 243 instead of 250, really? On a $12 order of 250 cards that amounts to .33¢ That's like somebody griping a 4x10 banner actually finished out at 47" x 119" and wanted a discount because of it.

 

[MindsEyeOpen]

And for the OP, 243 instead of 250, really? On a $12 order of 250 cards that amounts to .33¢ That's like somebody griping a 4x10 banner actually finished out at 47" x 119" and wanted a discount because of it.

It does seem a bit trivial when you put it in that perspective.

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

That's like somebody griping a 4x10 banner actually finished out at 47" x 119" and wanted a discount because of it.

No, it's more like someone ordering 250 banners and receiving 243 of them...really.

There's no need for eye rolling. I have stated that I am new to this sort of thing. I have little experience dealing with offset printers and have no idea how they operate. What I do know now is that they have this 5% policy, as I was unaware of it before this mishap took place. More importantly than the 250 card order being short was the 1000 card order being very short. I only stated that the 250 card order was short because we just happened to check upon realizing that the other order was short. I'm actually okay with it and have already delivered the cards to the customer. What I'm not happy with is that they...

1) Shorted me well below the 5% threshold on the 1000 card order and apparently would not have notified me of the shortage either.
2) Take payment for your order before artwork is even submitted, meaning whether I get 951 cards or 1050 cards, I'm still paying for 1000 cards.
3) After filing a ticket with them they still did not, in my opinion, come clean on the order. They gave me, apparently, sub-grade product to replace what was missing.

I feel I have every reason to be unhappy about it, but I'm not getting bent out of shape about it either. I will simply be moving on, whether anyone else thinks I'm being silly or not.

 

[Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?]

It does seem a bit trivial when you put it in that perspective.

Yeah, that 1000 card order is irrelevant.

 

[Gino]

Yeah FatC........

That's where I was going with this. Times have changed and so have ethics. You go cheap, expect riddles and deception, but still............ how do you explain 1,000 ordered, received 933 and you come up with 5%. Now what happens ??

Again, your analogy of 33¢ is right on, but if you do this to 100's of customers a day and it's part of your overall scheme, they save a lota moola. They could literally bank $1,000 a week or $52,000 a year for not producing something they said they delivered.

 

[FatCat]

No, it's more like someone ordering 250 banners and receiving 243 of them...really.

No, it's not - not at all. I know you want to think it is, but it isn't.

Look, I'm not trying to pick a fight, just offer up some information as to why things are they way they are in the offset industry. If you want 250 copies printed on your copier you punch up 250 and away you go. If you want 250 banners printed on your Roland/Mutoh/Mimaki, whatever you do the same. The machine is doing the work with little to no input from the operator.

That isn't the same with offset printing where a large chunk of what quality is produced and how many are printed are directly controlled by the operator, who is human, who can make mistakes or has to overcome all kinds of variables in order to produce a correctly printed job. To get 250 perfectly printed pieces it might take 275 or 300 pieces.

Now, you can go to a printer and say "I need exactly 250 pieces" and they will guarantee you get those 250 pieces by printing more than what is needed which will cost you more. (Yet far less than going back to press and printing a small batch to make up for being short.) OR you can order 250 cards from VistaPrint/4-Over or whomever and they will do them for an insanely cheap price and come "pretty close" to what you need but you have to give them a little leeway of 5%.

 

[FatCat]

Yeah FatC........

That's where I was going with this. Times have changed and so have ethics. You go cheap, expect riddles and deception, but still............ how do you explain 1,000 ordered, received 933 and you come up with 5%. Now what happens ??

Again, your analogy of 33¢ is right on, but if you do this to 100's of customers a day and it's part of your overall scheme, they save a lota moola. They could literally bank $1,000 a week or $52,000 a year for not producing something they said they delivered.

Again, Gino I completely understand and I agree that they goofed on the 933 and they should have discounted his/her pricing for the shortage. Regardless the OP said the discount wouldn't work and they needed the cards and the offending company sent the difference. Of course the concern now is that the quality isn't the same - which leads me to believe that they were done on a digital device vs. offset.

So my advice to the OP is that if you are in a situation where you ABSOLUTELY have to have an exact amount of XXXX number of cards, order the next size up on the qty break to ensure you have enough. Likely, it's only going to cost you a few bucks anyway. I think 250 vs 500 cards is around a $3/$4 difference? Wouldn't that be cheap insurance to prevent situations like this?