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WHO NEEDS TO PONY UP DAMAGE COST ???

Discussion in 'Screen Printing' started by PB33064, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. PB33064

    PB33064 Member

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    I encountered a problem last week with some screen printed HIP reflective signs that "welded" themselves together and actually stripped the ink when they were pried apart by the customer.
    If anyone has dealt much with HIP signs, they have no doubt seen this phenomenon occur (at least the static cling together). I've had them stick together, but never strip the ink.

    Over the last year or so, I have been wholesaling quite a few HIP blanks and finished signs. Most all have been non-traffic type signs, but my customer wants the HIP reflective. So here is the chain of events. Let me know where the blame lies.

    --- Had 56 identical signs that were 48" x 72". Best solution was to get them screen printed by a reliable traffic shop that I had dealt with in the past.

    --- Signs had "slip sheets" when I picked them up.
    I specifically asked if those were only there to protect in shipment, and if they had to stay in storage. Their answer was ONLY to protect in shipment. The went on to say, I didn't have to leave them in, but
    sometimes they stick together. They said that was an "inconvenience", and it woudln't hurt the signs. The
    ink was dry. THEIR EXACT WORDS.

    --- So now I have 12 of the 56 where the ink has actually been pulled off the sign and stuck to the one facing

    Today, the manufacturer says it not their problem even though they warranted the signs to last "x" amount of years. They say its my fault. While yes, I did remove the slip sheets, they did tell me it was ok to do so.

    These signs were in my storage (with slip sheets) for 3 weeks. When the customer was ready for delivery, I pulled the slip sheets (for 2 reasons) so they don't slide around in transport, and also because the customer has made comment that they are a nuisance and had asked me about them (thus, is why I asked the traffic shop if they were necessary). After they were delivered, they sat at the customers indoor storage area for 2 more weeks.

    I will go one step further. The traffic shop has sent me orders without the slip sheets, and I have never had this problem in the past. Perhaps something else is happening,

    So, who should eat this expense?
     
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  2. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Without seeing anything in writing, I would venture to say.... your fault. I don't care what some moron on the other end of the line is gonna tell me...... it's a known fact, that slip sheets should be left there, until being installed. That's just a given in today's sign world. Screen ink, printer ink, solvent ink and lettering paint..... none of it dries and cures that fast anymore.

    They probably used a generic ink and not one specifically for the substrate.
     
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  3. BIG EASY DOES IT

    BIG EASY DOES IT Very Active Member

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    If they take them off the racks and stack them before they are fully dry. They will not out gas properly with the sheets between them. We screen print all day. You can't rush the drying time. The customer most likely packaged them when they were dry enough to package. The signs never fully out gassed. Any screen printed signs without a laminate should keep a barrier between them at all times until installation.


    Nuisance or not. They should be there for protection. They did give you a little bit of bad information, although he did say they would stick, but ultimately I think you screwed up letting your customer dictate the way you handle your signage. EG is worse than HIP and DG combined when it comes to this issue.

    Edit: I didn't think about Ginos response either. This could be a mismatched ink issue also. Dry to the touch does not mean cured.
     
  4. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    Are slip sheets really that big of a hassle and annoyance to chance it in shipping?
     
  5. 2B

    2B Very Active Member

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    Because you removed the sheets, you are at fault and will be the one paying for damages.

    Unless there is a paper trail from the manufacturer stating you can remove the sheets, then the sheets stay put until installation
    Verbal confirmation means nothing unless you record your calls.

    I get annoyed when styrofoam pieces spill out of boxes, but I don't call up the shipper and request them removed.
    They are there for a reason and it stays that way.

    to stop the sliding during transportation, get some Poly Staps
    https://www.uline.com/Grp_56/Poly-Strapping
     
  6. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    To help a customer out the other day, I delivered 40pcs 4' x 4' double-sided 6mm ACM boards. I didn't use any paper between them, as they were printed on the flatbed and well dried and cured. However, to prevent movement, we have these grip clips and we have 1", 2" & 4" capacities. So, I put 15 together very gently and gripped 2 corners. Made 3 piles in the truck and delivered perfectly fine signs with no scratches or sticking. Also had a ton of printed vinyl, which was rolled up in a 54" container. Nothing stuck together there, either.

    These little guys really come in handy all over the shop for all kinds of things. grip clip.jpg
     
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  7. d fleming

    d fleming Very Active Member

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    Always keep the slip sheets. Even if they are cured still good practice. Remove upon install. I usually stack back to back slip sheet to front, back to back, etc. Unless you have it in writing from printer that it was ok to remove slips it's all you. Shame some dipstick in the warehouse gave you wrong info but common sense says if it left printer with slips, keep em.
     
  8. PB33064

    PB33064 Member

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    I do have that information in an email. So I do have their reply in writing from the "MORON" on the other end. That moron is the shop manager of a "Traffic Only" shop.

    The HIP vinyls are what they deal with every day. The screen inks are what they deal with every day.
    I DO NOT deal with these materials at all, but yet I had enough forsight to ask the right questions (unfortunately got the wrong answer). From my days of dealing with PAINT, i only assumed that inks may be similar. As others have said, they may feel dry, but are still wet inside. They said NOT a problem. Who am I to even further question their expertise?

    I was pretty specific when I asked if the slip sheets were needed to protect the ink in case they weren't completely dry. Their reply was, "the signs will occasionally stick together, but It wouldn't harm the ink or sign faces. Just a pain in the butt, NO WORRIES". He went on to say, "The ink is very thin, unlike paint, and it will fuse into the vinyl sheeting during their curing process. The inks cannot peel."


    So, no one believes they are even partly to blame?
    So much for their expertise and their warranty.
     
  9. StarSign

    StarSign Active Member

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    I have seen this happen when the signs are lying flat, not on their end.
     
  10. PB33064

    PB33064 Member

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    Gino, I don't know if you think this is a joke or what? These are "construction" type signs. They are thrown into the back of a truck and the crew heads down the road. They are usually scratched up when they throw them into the back of their truck when they pick them up.
    Most of these signs will have bullet holes in no time.

    That being said, A bullet hole or a scratch won't even be noticed on these signs. Big chunks of missing words is a totally different thing.
    Now I don't think I was that terribly irresponsible, especially after going the extra mile to inquire from the experts (or so called experts)

    Bottom line, the couple grand out of my pocket may be funny to you. That says quite a bit about the kind of person you must be.
     
  11. PB33064

    PB33064 Member

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    The end user (my customer) requested we save money and not slip sheet them. They said they were just a pain in the butt to them anyways. They actually offered to pay me if I could "fix" them.
    While it doesn't get any better than having a customer like that, I really felt that I needed to go to bat for them, and confront the manufacturer.
    Perhaps I am wrong, but I think they are partly, if not entirely to blame.

    After all is said, I don't think my "end user" should pay anything. They merely asked a question, and went along with the answer I gave them. The same answer I got.

    ps. I have a poly banding machine.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  12. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Yo, pb, I'll get back to ya later. I hafta clean out my gutters before nightfall. But in the meantime, where the fug did I say this was a joke ?? We'll talk later.
     
  13. Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay?

    Pixels Are Bad Mmmkay? Very Active Member

    While I think PB's reaction to your comment is a bit outrageous, I think he or she is simply put-off by your response as it has no relevance to the topic of slip sheets. Or does it? Maybe I just don't see the connection, but I kinda wondered the same thing, like what does this have to do with the topic at hand? If I'm misunderstanding something, I apologize.
     
  14. TXFB.INS

    TXFB.INS Very Active Member

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    I guess I read some of these comments differently.
    They are not saying the fabricator is blameless but they are saying you will the one held accountable and will pay for the replacements.
    you already tried and was told just this from your source

    get on the phone and try to get a person with higher authority.
    look for another supplier

    regardless, look at this a MULTIPLE learning points.main ones
    • how it arrives is how it stays
    • the end user should NOT be dictating how you transport products. once they have received and signed for the items. they can do as they want.
      • at that time you can tell them you will haul off the divider sheets, but will be they are ones removing the sheets not you
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
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  15. 2B

    2B Very Active Member

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    it is SH!TTY situation that you in the middle of, Pretty sure most all here have been there and done it.
    With the end user making those offers, more power to you and sounds like you are going to do right by them. Better than some of the customers we have dealt with, even if ENTIRELY their fault

    We have had enough of these I have to shake my head and wonder WFT
    I didn't say they weren't to blame, I said you were at fault. it is the same adage for court cases, what can you prove vs what you know.

    If they refuse to own up and fix the issue or partially compensate the issue. then put them on media blast, leave reviews and find a new source.
     
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  16. equippaint

    equippaint Very Active Member

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    I think removing the slip sheets is a bit careless and from experience you should have been known what could happen. In all honesty, from your quote you did know. To keep them from sliding, shrink wrap them in a group. With that being said, I don't think this is your fault.

    You leaned on the experts for their advice since this is their area of expertise and were given bad advice. The only reason you felt ok removing them, despite your apprehension, is because they told you it was ok.
     
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  17. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

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    In my screen printing days, I would never trust sheets of material lay flat together and always, as stated, stand them on end. You're the person who sold the signs to the customer, they stuck together, it's your fault and you have to own up to it. It's a lesson to learn, we all have gone through it in some manner.

    But your manner of calling people morons from where you picked them up from is not going to help you in any manner either.
     
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  18. PB33064

    PB33064 Member

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    Gino's post above suggested a moron advised me. I was merely saying that "moron" was the shop manager at this traffic shop.

    To be fair, this fabricator has most always done a good job and has treated me fair. . We have had minor snafu's along the way, but nothing major.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  19. PB33064

    PB33064 Member

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    I could be wrong, and if that is the case I apologize. Being Gino's post had nothing directly to do with slip sheets, or this thread directly, I could only assume he was offering up a fabricated story of a ridiculous way to transport a large number of signs (sound familiar?) and how they arrived without any "sticking" together or sliding around (sound familiar again?).

    I have no other idea how anyone can "spin" his comments. But hey, perhaps he did ship a large number of signs with these "squeeze clamps" in bundles of 15 (not sure how he stacked the next bundle of double sided signs on top of the squeeze clamps).
    Anythings possible. I did see a guy transporting a couch on top of his Pontiac Grand Prix last week.

    No sweat jsmoritz.
     
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2018
  20. astro8

    astro8 Active Member

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    "--- So now I have 12 of the 56 where the ink has actually been pulled off the sign and stuck to the one facing"

    If these were stacked ink to ink it's no wonder they stuck together.
    At the end of the day it's your problem and you have to make good...sometimes a hard pill to swallow.

    Moving forward, you have to decide whether to just leave in the slip sheets or take them out and cross your fingers.
    I'd choose the former and make it policy.

    We've all been there, all been given bad information and questionable advice. I've found it's always best to go with your gut feeling.
    You must of known deep down that it would have been best to leave the slip sheets in, no matter what anyone told you.
     
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