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WHO NEEDS TO PONY UP DAMAGE COST ???

Discussion in 'Screen Printing' started by PB33064, Aug 3, 2018.

  1. ikarasu

    ikarasu Very Active Member

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    Let's say I called up 3M and said I want to put the cheapest calandered overlam on 3m 180 material, asked if it was ok. And they said it's cheaper and you'll be converting a 10 year vinyl into a 2 year vinyl because of the overlam.. so you decided to do it since you only need two years on the install.

    So you print a roll or two... Do the install.. then a week later the calandered laminate starts curling and everything begins to peel .Is it your fault for not knowing you shouldn't ever use calandered with cast, or 3ms fault.for saying it'll be fine?

    Not every shop knows everything about ever process. We do a lot of screen printing, and we'd never ship a sign without a sheet of foam, or at the very least a sheet of backing paper inbetween. We also would never store or ship a digitally printed sign without one... Or even a sheeted sign. Aluminum is heavy, and materials rubbing against eachother tend to scuff it up... So we always use slip sheets inbetween.

    You asked, and they said with their product it'd be fine, and it wasn't. You have a written trail of them saying it... I don't see how they can shift all the blame on you.

    Forward the email, tell them you followed their handling instructions, and the signs didn't survive .either they sent you.inferior signs that do not hold up to their handling instructions, or their advice was wrong.

    Work WITH them on a solution. One that's agreeable by both of you .Odds are you'll take a hit also, but they should be held liable for their part in it .


    It sounds like.its a local company .. what's the issue with bringing the defective signs back and getting them fixed? So long as the vinyl isn't damaged, you can remove whatever leftover print is on it pretty fast / easy and reprint. If it's a single color sign it won't take them long to fix... Couple hours in labor and a few bucks in paint.
     
  2. rossmosh

    rossmosh Active Member

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    If a manufacturer advises that it's okay to do something, and you have it in writing, they have some level of responsibility.

    The problem in these types of situations is typically did anything else happen in the interim that could have caused the problem. Basically did you or your customer actually cause the problem by doing something other than simply removing the slip sheet.

    Generally speaking the best way to proceed in these types of situations is to try to find a solution that works for everyone. Normally there is a solution out there that everyone can live with.
     
  3. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Okay pb, let's see where you went wrong..........

    You said in your OP something about preventing sliding around. Ah-ha..... hence the reason for the post you suddenly don't understand. You also said, in your OP, that they said you can remove the sheets, BUT they sometimes stick. He didn't give you a green light to go off willy-nilly and take the protective sheet out. Which brings to mind..... how in the world are these sheets a nuisance ?? You see, if you clipped them together, they wouldn't slide. No one in their right mind throws brand new signs into the back of a truck and purposely scratches or dents them in the process. Sure, they get shot up, rattle-canned and hit by snowplows, but nowhere do customers mistreat signs, UNLESS you lead them to believe they can.

    Do you think the wholesaler should be responsible for all of your misconceptions ?? Other than being a broker, what do you really know about the wear & tear of all the various ways signs can be made. You might wanna educate yourself on how signs are made and determine a better way to make 56 signs. You see, had you had a flatbed company do it, you wouldn't be having any of these problems.

    You took the wrong route, because of what you thought. Knowledge on fabrication could be your friend, if you learned to control your temper and listen once in a while.
     
  4. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    Exactly what I said earlier. What is the big issue with the sheets? Why are they bothering the OP or the so much?

    99% of the time, if my sign is going to get blemished, scratched or damaged.. it happens during transportation.. This is the part of the sign making process you need to pay EXTRA CLOSE ATTENTION TO.

    We are responsible for the TRANSPORTATION phase of the sign... all the way up to handing it to the end user.


    I thought Gino's post was relevant to the OP's topic.. Wasn't too far to connect the dots..., but then again I've seen people struggle with less.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Johnny Best

    Johnny Best Very Active Member

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    Where Gino wants PB33 to put those clamps. clamps.jpg
     
    • OMG / Wow! OMG / Wow! x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  6. Billct2

    Billct2 Major Contributor

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    You have it in an email that the manufacturer said no problem, you don't need slip sheets, it will never peel (they're stupid for saying that)...so I say it's on them. If they balk at replacements I would suggest splitting it 50/50.
     
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  7. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    Actually, he (the OP) wrote they said he could take them out, but sometimes they stick. That would be a clue as to let them remain in place.

    Let's face it, not a single person responding here has said they can/or should be removed. So, why ask a question of which you should already know the answer ?? He said he knew about paint and wondered if screen ink reacts the same way. So, who was the OP trying to fool with such a question ??

    Sure, everyone starts somewhere, but something like this seems a bit stretched somewhere. Besides, what customer tells you, I don't like the slip sheets, can we remove them ?? They'll usually do it on their own and complain afterwards.
     
  8. PB33064

    PB33064 Member

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    Sorry for your confusion. Your assuming the sheets are an inconvenience to ME.
    When I transport a pallet of signs (slip sheets or not) I will have them banded. Whether they have slip sheets or not, they aren't going anywhere. We recently upgraded from our manual bander to a battery operated poly strapping tools (thing is amazing. should be for $2700)

    The nuisance comment is the words of the customer. They will fork lift the stack onto their truck and head out on a "road trip" to install. They do not take "one at a time" out to install. So, they get to their first stop, cut the poly bands and the fun begins. They are all over the place. Then of course, they have the garbage to contend with. (I am only conveying what they have told me)

    I'm sure their is a number of solutions you can throw out there for the install crew, but its a moot point now. As most have pointed out, from now on, I will always slip sheet to the customer. Hah, it was extra work for me to REMOVE them. How they proceed from there is not my concern.


    I do have updated information.
    The regional foreman picked up his new signs this morning, about an hour ago. He said, "we have dealt with reflective signs long before you my friend. I've seen this happen on rare occasions. WE requested you remove the plastic sheets!! The problem was, we didn't expect them to sit for a couple weeks before we got them moved".

    He thanks us for the prompt rush of these replacement signs, and insisted we go ahead and bill them. I insisted we do 50/50, but he insisted back that it was their decision. He said to bill regular price or they would go elsewhere next time. LOL

    This company does large scale Explosives / Blasting projects, along with Engineering and Consulting. They constantly have some regulatory agency breathing down their back. More often than not, when they need something, they need it today (or yesterday). 99.7% of the time we make that happen. Luckily, most of those "need it yesterday" jobs is only a 4x4 job site sign, a danger sign, or some permit numbers. Nothing major.

    Ironic part of this story is, They started using us because they felt their former sign provider was over priced. So we keep our pricing competitive. Even their PO's have a clause that states, if they find it cheaper elsewhere, we must do it for the lowest price they find. That has actually happened twice in the past year.
     
  9. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    And que Gino in 5...4...3...2...1
     
  10. Gino

    Gino Premium Subscriber

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    I like happy endings.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  11. ikarasu

    ikarasu Very Active Member

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    For slip sheets.... Roll them up as.theyre used. Your customer probably brings a garbage bag and shoves them into the bag after every sheet... Filling the bag after 3 signs.

    Roll it up, slap a piece of tape on it to hold it.... Roll up the next over top, and so on. You can get 50-100 signs worth of slip sheets and it won't take up more space than a tiny roll of media.

    Presuming your using backing paper at least.

    We just did a 2 week job at a hospital, hundreds of signs with slipsheeting / foam inbetween. Takes a few seconds to roll, but reduced the waste volume by 1000%.

    Either way. I'd ask your customer what their issue is with slipsheeting, and find a solution to their issues .. whether it's a different material or something else.
     
  12. Texas_Signmaker

    Texas_Signmaker Very Active Signmaker

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    It's like saying you don't like the process of opening a box, undoing the bubble wrap and disposing of the material.
     
  13. PB33064

    PB33064 Member

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    Gino, you sound very educated in this field. I wish I had consulted you first.
    Yes, I thought it "may" be a problem, so I asked the question. (Keep in mind, I don't do screen printing)

    This manufacturer is a national company of traffic signs. They have multiple locations across the U.S. of A.
    I'm not going to pretend I know what process they use, but I did have faith that whatever their formula for producing these signs must be the proper way to do them. That being said, I have heard them talk about their UV cure capabilities, and another process uses a heat/bonding finishing process. I'll assume you have both and know what that all means?

    Whatever their process, when i asked about damaging the ink, the guy I spoke with said they would be fine. I cannot tell you verbatim what he said when I picked up the signs (a continuation of the email conversation), but I left with the concept that the ink actually soaked into the HIP and was fused into the vinyl. For all I know, this was total BS.
    Perhaps it makes more sense to you?

    So, at the end of the day Gino, my fear of pending doom was correct. I should have went with my gut feeling. The only person I tried to "fool" was myself. I tried to balance out "pleasing the customer" against "doing with I thought best. I went the wrong way.

    I appreciate your contribution to this thread, but I don't understand who you think I attempted to "fool"?
     
  14. PB33064

    PB33064 Member

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    I'll ask them the next chance I get.

    Tex, in hindsight, if i were faced with the job of going on a road trip to install, I would probably screw some boards to the pallet and form a "make shift" crate.

    I'm guessing you have never sorted thru 50-75 signs out on the road?
    Typically not all their shipments are all identical signs. More common, they have 10 of 6 different kind of signs. It would be nice if you could made 6 different piles in the back of the truck, but no.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  15. ikarasu

    ikarasu Very Active Member

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    If they constantly need that...build a crate.

    At the bottom of the crate build some slots, put some foam inbetween the slots... Stand the signs upright .put a sheet of paper with a photo of the sign you need at the start of each design.

    If it's big signs... You can build.it so the signs sit horizontally .You lose some space... But we do it all the time for big installs. Less chance to damage the signs shifting through them, less bending over/back injuries going through each sign...and a whole lot faster.

    Or build a small wooden box for each different version where the end opens. Can stack them on-top of eachother... The box prevents them from moving, you can still use slipsheeting to prevent them from getting damaged .. you don't waste any space that way, the signs stay separated..
    And you still save time / risk of damaging signs. Lots of solutions to fox their problems...

    It's the little things / extra effort you put in making it easier for the next guy that makes a customer stay loyal, or stay with you even though your not the cheapest .
     
  16. skyhigh

    skyhigh Major Contributor

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    Thats a very good idea.
    Why not a crate where the signs can be stacked vertical? The rear of the crate can be of solid design, and the front, have a hinged bar when you want to remove a sign. After loading the crate into the truck, it can be ratchet strapped to the truck bed.

    Something to think about. I may have to build one of those myself
    If I ever get around to it, I will post up a picture.

    Don't let the few with the gang mentality screw with ya PB. Some just like to cause an argument wherever thread they visit. Its their only form of enjoyment.

    YOU TOLD YOUR STORY......GAVE THE CHAIN OF EVENTS......ADMITTED IT WAS A BAD DECISION..........YET, some feel the need to berate you to make themselves feel good.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2018
  17. ikarasu

    ikarasu Very Active Member

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    Vertical works to a certain height. We do it for 30" signs .Op mentioned signs were 48 x 72... So they'd be 4ft high minimum, and you'd have toift them 8 ft into the air to get them out of the crate .Not too hard... But sign that large are kind of heavy. You'd need two people... It'd work, just not as convenient as horizontal for that size.
     
  18. skyhigh

    skyhigh Major Contributor

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    I was thinking the rear of the crate would have a hinged bar that would open horizontally . Slide them straight out the back.......Not lift them up out of the crate.
     
  19. ikarasu

    ikarasu Very Active Member

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    Yup, that way would work too! We have a bunch of crates premade for customers. They use them then ship them back. Not sure who designed them... We haven't made any in a long time. The only ones we constantly make are for extruded signs, them are just flat packed ones so we didn't have to get creative... I like your idea though.

    We have some metal welded ones we made like that, where it opens from the side, with slots in the bottom for a forklift to lift it up and everything. We only use it for one customer who ships them across the province to install at his construction sites. It's heavy, but sturdy... And so far we haven't had any damages signs come back.

    The biggest issue is storage of the crates... We have about 10 of different sizes .we have a huge oversized yard that they sit in under tarps. Smaller shops might have more trouble though.
     
  20. Billct2

    Billct2 Major Contributor

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    I like the crate idea too, and it may get you some great points with the customer so it's worth a try. I also know what that type of customer and their employees can be like and it may not get implemented all that well...but it's worth a try
     
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