Gypsy crews typically handle stuff like this. They work for pennies on the dollar and spend their life on the road going from location to location. The ones I have met are happy with the lifestyle and have no aspirations of becoming rich. The corporate enablers take full advantage of the generosity of such gypsy crews. If you have ever bid a job like this and lost by a factor of 4, you have been out gypsied.
-
I want to thank all the members that have upgraded your accounts. I truly appreciate your support of the site monetarily. Supporting the site keeps this site up and running as a lot of work daily goes on behind the scenes. Click to Support Signs101 ...
2000 store install pricing
- Thread starter jkdbjj
- Start date
Gino
Premium Subscriber
That's the neat thing about them. You don't need to sign up for anything. They're usually called illegal aliens, but to be PC, calling them gypsies, you're only guilty of stereotyping, which if the government doesn't hafta support their butts, everyone's happy.
That's a lon-n-ng run-on sentence......
Jester1167
Premium Subscriber
I guess what I don't understand is that they will have to have several crews installing the cabinets. At least one or two crews based in regions. If that is the case, lets assume (I know a$$-u-me) they have 10 crew doing 5 stores a day equaling 50 stores. How do you keep up and your travel is going to get out of hand going back and forth all over the country from region to region and back to a region...
It is surprising to me that that a rollout like this would take over a year. Typically companies will take a week or two and at the most months for rebranding.
If you get in the middle and decide you need help you can look to the PDAA or 3M for lists of certified installer. Using certified installers isn't a guarantee, but their skills and knowledge have been tested. You can also use The wrappermapper as a visual reference then check the companies against the certification lists (site appears to be down right now).
I am a member of the PDAA. If you need help in my area give me a call.
It is surprising to me that that a rollout like this would take over a year. Typically companies will take a week or two and at the most months for rebranding.
If you get in the middle and decide you need help you can look to the PDAA or 3M for lists of certified installer. Using certified installers isn't a guarantee, but their skills and knowledge have been tested. You can also use The wrappermapper as a visual reference then check the companies against the certification lists (site appears to be down right now).
I am a member of the PDAA. If you need help in my area give me a call.
signed off
me
$$$
a few items missing off your original cost/price list of flight, hotel, food, what about a vehicle, insurance, long distance fees, tolls, parking fines ( it can happen).
Emergency$$ to fly home ( if needed), over head both at home and at shop if you have one. What if there is a snow storm and you are stranded for a few days at the hotel do you have a back up plan. Really crunch the numbers of what a job pays for on a normal day in your shop.
a few items missing off your original cost/price list of flight, hotel, food, what about a vehicle, insurance, long distance fees, tolls, parking fines ( it can happen).
Emergency$$ to fly home ( if needed), over head both at home and at shop if you have one. What if there is a snow storm and you are stranded for a few days at the hotel do you have a back up plan. Really crunch the numbers of what a job pays for on a normal day in your shop.
nashvillesigns
Making America great, one sign at a time.
store install1
i like the way this thread is going.
some observations-
1. i bet the installs are done when the store is closed. off peak hours should be more money.
2. don't forget parking fees.
3. Always make sure there is an extra graphic on hand ( as, you bring with) in case there is an accident.
4. i am guessing all the graphics is installed below six feet high??
Sure volume discounting is nice, but this is LABOR, not a product. wear and tear on a body is irreplaceable. Don't discount for that!
-Mosher
i like the way this thread is going.
some observations-
1. i bet the installs are done when the store is closed. off peak hours should be more money.
2. don't forget parking fees.
3. Always make sure there is an extra graphic on hand ( as, you bring with) in case there is an accident.
4. i am guessing all the graphics is installed below six feet high??
Sure volume discounting is nice, but this is LABOR, not a product. wear and tear on a body is irreplaceable. Don't discount for that!
-Mosher
jkdbjj
New Member
Can't do five a day no way no how? I swear some people on this forum just wanna start ****.
Anyway, someone else asked about if there is 50 done a day how do I handle it. I mentioned already I have a couple people that would go with me. It is highly likely I will hire extra installers along the way.
The client as someone speculated is very large, but doesn't handle graphics that often, as I already pointed out.
I also said I am not doing them for 150/store I said 250. That means there is plenty of money for travel, lodging and all that and a healthy profit also.
I made the thread for some ideas, and I got some from some cool people on here. Those that are just being negative, I guess I'll just have to take it with a grain of salt.
I am listening to everyone, and taking advice.
To say I am not qualified is just silly though. If we never challenge ourselves we never grow. Have I done this many before, no, but I have done big jobs in the past over many states.
Anyway, again thanks to those that have offered sounds advice, warnings, encouragement and the rest. That's why I stick around here.
Anyway, someone else asked about if there is 50 done a day how do I handle it. I mentioned already I have a couple people that would go with me. It is highly likely I will hire extra installers along the way.
The client as someone speculated is very large, but doesn't handle graphics that often, as I already pointed out.
I also said I am not doing them for 150/store I said 250. That means there is plenty of money for travel, lodging and all that and a healthy profit also.
I made the thread for some ideas, and I got some from some cool people on here. Those that are just being negative, I guess I'll just have to take it with a grain of salt.
I am listening to everyone, and taking advice.
To say I am not qualified is just silly though. If we never challenge ourselves we never grow. Have I done this many before, no, but I have done big jobs in the past over many states.
Anyway, again thanks to those that have offered sounds advice, warnings, encouragement and the rest. That's why I stick around here.
reQ
New Member
Don't take it to serious that someone is saying u r not qualified to do the job
Most people here just trying to make you realize what kind of issues you can run in to & you won't be losing money down the road.P.S. Good luck with your project and as was mentioned before - keep us updated how everything turns out for you!
Accelerated Graphics
New Member
I read most of the post and didn't see anyone bring this up.. I would give them a discount on volume more like a rebate.. Sure they have 2000 store and you quote the job cheap and at about 200 stores in they decide to go a different route. I had an account that had several hundred stores and we where always changing this and that and had extra pieces made so we would be ready to install when called, this went on for 5-7 years then they sold all the stores... I still get some of the little stuff but not like before..
HulkSmash
New Member
Techman
New Member
How many store sites change have you done like this?
How many have installed an hours menu and door logo across town in less than an hour including drive time away from the shop?
Walking into a store with a job site unseen is not a walk in the park. There will always be a variable not accounted for.
5 sites a night will not be done in in a night. No it will not happen.
How many companies have locations less than 20 minutes apart? How many have locations more than an hour apart?
Home depot here has 3 all of which are at least 30 minutes apart.
Lows has several all of them at least 35 minuted apart.
Menards has many all of them all at least 30 minuted apart.
You get the idea.
to start..
Drive to site.
You have to use the loading dock. using front door is not allowed.. Get your security badge checked and into the loading dock slot if there one open when you get there. If not a slot you have to walk across the snow covered parking lot. Or in the rain trying to keep your cig dry.
Then you get locked out and have to walk around to the front door to get in again. No they will not allow you to prop the doors open.
Plan to do it all at night. There is no way you will be allowed to drag your stuff into an open store with customers walking around in the day time.
Even then if you do it with customers around you will be required to set up some type of barricades.
You always have to seek out the manager on site and get his input and authorization to start.. And of which he knew nothing about you coming that night so he has to call central booking to clear it.
Then you drag in your tools and other goodies to set it up.
Add on 15 minutes if there is anything in the way such as pallets of inventory, an unknown display case in the way, or the cleaning crew working the floors.
Add in an extra 15 minutes if there is a ladder involved which there will be if the work is more than 5 ft high..
If it is a change out where you remove the old stuff it will always take more time than planned.
Oh, the panel didn't fit.. There was a custom order change in the display for this site.
Then you will remove the barricades.
Then you clean up.
If you blow a panel you have to remove it and start another new one.
Then you get the man to sign off if you can find him.
Then check out with the loading dock. You better be out before 7 am shift change or you will stuck waiting for the incoming super.
Then ad on some driving time between each site and lunch breaks and pee break and general chat time.
If you supply the panels you have to arrange time to prep each one. If supplied to you they will always arrive in a condition that requires you to be a magician. If they are supposed to be waiting for you at the site then plan to spend about 18 minutes locating them. And pray all the pieces are right there when you inventory them. If you fail to inventory you will be blamed for the missing pieces..
On the way to the next site you suddenly see your gas gauge on empty. Stop and fill up and wait for your helper to get back to the truck with his drink. Which he will spill on the graphics.
This will always take at least 2.5 hours each site.
Ask me how I know. And this is why I feel this thread has way too many inconsistent points to be a well thought out plan..
qmr55
New Member
Or not? Maybe hes just a hustler and gets his $hit done. Who knows. You mad or something?
Gino
Premium Subscriber
To me, he's being realistic.
The OP's conditions have changed so many times, since he's started, I don't know if I have the same opinions one way or the other, anymore.
It is now really starting to sound like a bad idea, unless he delegates. He can be a control center/dispatcher, but to do 3,000 by yourself, with helpers, with your son, have cheap board, not have a single sick day in 2 years, not have a single snow day or just misinformation, no vacation, no family, layovers at airports, wrong licensing for a particular municipality or enough insurance for on the road, someone bungles the car rental details, let alone time to get to 5 different places in one day when in one location, they could be 2 or 3 hours apart.
To reduce your price to $250 a pop..... sounds ludicrous at this point. After all this other information has come forth, it sounds more someone looking for some easy money, that ain't gonna be all that easy.
I've never done 3,000 locations for one customer, but I know what it's like after doing 3 or 4...... 175, 300 and so on and believe me, after doing 75, you're burnt out, so unless the OP has some kinda backup plan, I think this whole thing is wrong..... as far as the way he is going about it.
Think about it, he has two complete overheads going, buying food and paying the bills for his wife and family and his own stuff while on the road for a year or two. Food on the road is never cheap.
Nope,'Bad Idea' is written all over this one. :Oops:
jkdbjj
New Member
Follow Up
Thought I would update the thread.
The roll out went beautifully, and I was very pleased that a trainable method of install was obtainable as that was my biggest concern because store could look different if installers were free to install however they want to. Basically all that means, is I want Panel A up first, then B etc... I want the corners trimmed like A, and overlaps like so on and so on, which has allowed the install time to reduce a lot.
Job is accepted, and no one has any issues or problems to resolve at this time. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone.
Lastly some recommended installing at the warehouse, which was an idea I explored so thanks! However, it turns out these panels are shipped in pieces, and they want the graphic to have no cuts in the middle of panels, which would happen if we installed at warehouse. Otherwise that would have worked great.
For those interested, I'll report back and post some pics as we go along.
Thought I would update the thread.
- The company I am working with is very organized. I mean they have this down to a tee now. That is what the first roll out was about. Working the kinks out.
- That means when I am scheduled to show up at store A, it is ready for me. Once I finish my part, they continue the rest of their part.
- I have gotten the install down to less than one hour per store. I have been able to come up with an actual installation method that is trainable and repeatable so that I know whoever I have at a store it is being done the same way I approved. This has made QA easier to manage.
- This is a big chain indeed, but not so big that there are loading docs and security badges or anything like that. I simply show up through the front doors say hi to the crew and get started. I throw my trash in the dumpster and head to next location.
- Worst case scenario, the five stores a day takes 10 hour of the day, but best case is closer to 7 hours.
- There will be days I have one person helping and days I have two persons helping, depending on the spread. The jobs will be done in close knit geographic areas, and then we all move as a unit from one town to the next.
The roll out went beautifully, and I was very pleased that a trainable method of install was obtainable as that was my biggest concern because store could look different if installers were free to install however they want to. Basically all that means, is I want Panel A up first, then B etc... I want the corners trimmed like A, and overlaps like so on and so on, which has allowed the install time to reduce a lot.
Job is accepted, and no one has any issues or problems to resolve at this time. I appreciate all the feedback from everyone.
Lastly some recommended installing at the warehouse, which was an idea I explored so thanks! However, it turns out these panels are shipped in pieces, and they want the graphic to have no cuts in the middle of panels, which would happen if we installed at warehouse. Otherwise that would have worked great.
For those interested, I'll report back and post some pics as we go along.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Well, good luck. I wish you well.
When are you leaving ?? If things go according to your plan..... you won't get back to us until about the middle of 2017. By then, no one will remember this anymore.
jkdbjj
New Member
No all 3000 stores will be done by this time next year. Not 2017 or whatever you are thinking.
After the first 500 are done, which will be around April, crew size will increase to meet deadline. This is something the client has requested.
Once April comes, I will have an expanded crew in place to cover the added volume.
Yet these are more details that have developed as the job moved along. That is usually what happens when planning is done.
Also, when crew size increases, costs approvals will change to cover me managing remote crews and occasionally having to travel and spot check.
Anyway, you seem bothered Gino? Everything OK?
After the first 500 are done, which will be around April, crew size will increase to meet deadline. This is something the client has requested.
Once April comes, I will have an expanded crew in place to cover the added volume.
Yet these are more details that have developed as the job moved along. That is usually what happens when planning is done.
Also, when crew size increases, costs approvals will change to cover me managing remote crews and occasionally having to travel and spot check.
Anyway, you seem bothered Gino? Everything OK?
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Nope, not bothered at all. Just dumbfounded............
I always laugh to myself how people give just a little portion of the puzzle, bit by bit, get results and then change the story, time after time after time. Sure, things change, but if you can't see that what's happening is what most of us were telling you, then I guess people just don't see the value in communication.
Many here were telling you... you had to delegate, get more people involved, but you led us to think some valued time with your kid, living on the road and roaming around the country was gonna be a great experience.
Again, I bid you good luck. However, using your math is what I don't understand. February is just around the corner and using your calculations, that's maybe 300 stores... even if you use the whole month of April. You're saying you'll have 500 by April. To a normal person, that would mean 8 weeks away. I'm giving you the benefit of 12 weeks. At 25 stores a week..... how much/many is that ?? You are going off so 1/2 cocked, it ain't even funny. THEN, you're gonna add more installers. Something you originally said you could not do. This is what I mean by changing things around all the time.
Hey, it's your party..... getting 3,000 stores finished by next year this time will mean you need to get almost 60 stores done a week. Something even you said is impossible. If you're gonna add enough people to do this and add in all the expenses.... you must be either a genius or forgetting a calculation on your paper.
You should be going in around $500 a pop at the least. Using your numbers, your payroll will be somewhere around $350K to $400K including the overtime you must pay by law. Add to that everyone's meals, plane-fare, rental cars rooms and whatnot.... you're gonna add another maybe $190K. Before taxes and sh!t, you're gonna take home maybe $150K. That's like $300 a week for your pay. Sounds not too pretty good to me. Did I mention, your wife and family hafta eat from that, too ?? Or does she have a well paying job ??
You're gonna hafta pay the taxes and all the legal stuff for your helpers, if you're the acting general in this situation. You can't set them up as individual freelancers and let them take care of their own taxes and write offs. That's your responsibility of you are in command. No way around that one.
Nope, I'm not bothered at all.......................
I always laugh to myself how people give just a little portion of the puzzle, bit by bit, get results and then change the story, time after time after time. Sure, things change, but if you can't see that what's happening is what most of us were telling you, then I guess people just don't see the value in communication
Many here were telling you... you had to delegate, get more people involved, but you led us to think some valued time with your kid, living on the road and roaming around the country was gonna be a great experience.
Again, I bid you good luck. However, using your math is what I don't understand. February is just around the corner and using your calculations, that's maybe 300 stores... even if you use the whole month of April. You're saying you'll have 500 by April. To a normal person, that would mean 8 weeks away. I'm giving you the benefit of 12 weeks. At 25 stores a week..... how much/many is that ?? You are going off so 1/2 cocked, it ain't even funny. THEN, you're gonna add more installers. Something you originally said you could not do. This is what I mean by changing things around all the time.
Hey, it's your party..... getting 3,000 stores finished by next year this time will mean you need to get almost 60 stores done a week. Something even you said is impossible. If you're gonna add enough people to do this and add in all the expenses.... you must be either a genius or forgetting a calculation on your paper.
You should be going in around $500 a pop at the least. Using your numbers, your payroll will be somewhere around $350K to $400K including the overtime you must pay by law. Add to that everyone's meals, plane-fare, rental cars rooms and whatnot.... you're gonna add another maybe $190K. Before taxes and sh!t, you're gonna take home maybe $150K. That's like $300 a week for your pay. Sounds not too pretty good to me. Did I mention, your wife and family hafta eat from that, too ?? Or does she have a well paying job ??
You're gonna hafta pay the taxes and all the legal stuff for your helpers, if you're the acting general in this situation. You can't set them up as individual freelancers and let them take care of their own taxes and write offs. That's your responsibility of you are in command. No way around that one.
Nope, I'm not bothered at all.......................
reQ
New Member
Gino, your words not gonna work. People learn on their own mistakes, and this one going to be an expensive one
HulkSmash
New Member
Gino, I almost agree with you. ALMOST.
How we have worked for the past few years, is we get sh!t done. Period. If there is a time table, we calculate a way to get it done. We hire the guys to get it done. We spend the hours to get it done. If i was him, in that situation, and they needed 500 stores done in 3 months. We would find a way to get it done, and don't tell me you wouldn't. As for him doing it with 1-2 guys.. not very possible.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Yes...... you, me and even the OP here will find a way, but not with the manpower and cost of operations he's talking. Instead of day dreaming, you or I'd take all the elements and components into account and price it accordingly.
There is much more to business than just hoping things will work in your favor.
There is much more to business than just hoping things will work in your favor.