Are we a weakening industry? And is it our own fault?

[threeputt]

Ok, here's my take on all of this. Bear with me.

The sign industry is unique in one way. It truly qualifies as a "service" industry, but is often perceived as a "retail" industry. By that I mean clients, more and more now, tend to look at finished signwork, much like you and I might look at a pie, for example, sitting in a baker's window.

Isn't it true, that to the baker he has rendered a service? He had to decide which and how much of each ingredient he would use. He and he alone decided what temperatures, duration of cooking, which methods, he would employ also. Correct? With me so far?

But you and I gazing at the pie see it as a commodity. So the cost of the pie becomes a very important factor when comparing it with other baker's pies. We see it as a retail product. And buying decisions quite often are preponderantly price weighted. Of course....if his pie tastes bad, that trumps pricing.

 

[ndemond]

Competition or new guy wants to know what you charge:
No one has ever asked except on 101. I figure its easy and I always say, time, materials and your % of markup. Depending on what the market will bear. Start high if they bite great, if they grimace you have a lttle wiggle room and still make a good profit.

Customer wants the vector artwork for your sign design on disk or wants you to email it somewhere else (possibly to your competition):
Design time is worked into all our quotes, and does not get a hard copy of the design till there is a signed contract and deposit.
If it s a logo creation the get it on cd in different formats and the old fashioned logo slicks in b&w. After they pay for the design at a price that was discussed before beginning any design.

I’m all for helping out our customers and offering the best services but at what cost? And where do you draw the line? Should we let them walk all over us?

A rule of thumb is if you charge enough the PITA is worth it, and know before hand (most of the time). We have changed designs after a drawing is signed, as long as production has not begun. Large stuff, big projects, have a 3-5 week working period anyway so it usually isn't a problem.

Speaking of educating the customer, is it worth our time to explain the ins and outs of our business to our customers?:

No, only explain why they can't have the sign tomorrow. Custom sign work takes time. (see above)


Not only is it worth our time, but is it a wise thing to do? Where do you draw the line between educating and simply selling the job?

Selling yourself and educating the customer the importance of a well designed sign is all you can do. They came to you first, they need the product you have.

Selling materials and tools to competition:

As others said the one or two shops in the area sometimes need a piece of vinyl or use of a boom. They are charged accordingly. Also the two shops in the area the owners started with us 20 years ago. Still buds.

How do you handle this? Sure you’re getting money for your material. But your competition is the one that can’t keep track of his or her inventory. If they know you will easily supply them, then will they keep coming back for more, rather then buying from the supplier like you and everyone else does? In some case we will be helpful but we will also put our foot down if we feel our friendship with a nearby sign shop is being abused.

Doesn't come up.

Charity Work:
Does it seem like we are the easiest marks on the face of the planet when it comes to people that want custom work for nothing? We tell a lot of people that come in that we can’t possible take in every charity job that comes in. We have to pick and chose. And 99% of the time we give only discounts, maybe only charge for material cost and enough to break even. People need to understand that it’s more important for you to be able to provide for your family then to help them out with their cause. The moment word gets out that you do work for free your in real trouble. How do you all deal with charity work?

The charity work we do is for golf tourneys, churches, schools, baseball and softball teams. Some we charge materials others nothing. We do get an onslaught of askers, if it is a good cause, no problem. If business is booming
no problem. If cash flow is tight. That's what we tell 'em. And do not do it.

Free sketches:
Why is it okay to give away your intellectual ideas for free? What other industry does something this stupid? It’s gotten so bad that customers expect this treatment and are dumbfounded if you have the audacity of asking to be paid for doing work. How do you guys handle this problem? Why are we letting the mistakes of the new guys in this industry control how sign businesses should be run? If we give away free sketches aren’t we just asking to be ripped off?

Yes nothing is free.



:U Rock::signs101:

I stated above only 2 shops in the area of about 50,000. One has a printer. Have been noticing lately some printed banners popping up from customers that we used to service. Those small jobs were always nice to have because of its easy money and keeps the cash flow going.

We offer services the other 2 do not:

Maintenance- we have an elliot, 2 buckets and a boom.
Highway billboards
Custom Neon
and a shop large enough to fab our own cabinets etc w/ a spray booth.

It's setting yourselves apart, not doing what the other guy is doing.

 

[Sign_Boy]

OK, I'll be honest I didn't read this whole thread - I skimmed it.
It's late in the day, I need a nap or perhaps a beer, but seriously.

I don't think we are a weakening industry, we are an evolving industry.
I've been in the business off and on since 99. I've worked for an at one time successful Mom and Pop shop then I helped out at a SBT and know a few other people in the industry that would be considered old school. Now I have my own place, it's been a little over 2 years. Do I consider myself new to the industry? YES!!!! I still have a ton to learn as do all of us IMO. Well enough of my boaring background.

Why do I think we are an evolving industry?
Because we have to deal with the changes in technology. From printers, plotters, new materials, new paints and so on. It's forever changing. However IMO one of our biggest obstacles to overcome is the consumer.
Not the changing technology. Why the consumer you might ask?

This is why:

Society has turned into an I want it now personality.
If they can't have it now they will go some place they can get it.
They also don't want to spend money.
This is where the internet comes into play.
They can get it for less money and at the same time get that instant gratification of placing their order. Now is their product going to be top quality? Probably not. Will they get it in a timely fashion? Probably not.

Is it the internet's fault this is happening?
Is it the fault of the company that lowballs on the internet?

IMO I don't think so. IMO they found a market and they are capitalizing on it. Do I think this is right? Nope

So what can we do about this?
Well for starters we can try to reeducate the consumer.
We can try to explain to them that we are a "custom" industry.
For the most part we do not duplicate what we do.
We can also teach them that what we do is a craft, something that is learned, a skill, something that we take pride in.
Teach them that they get what they pay for and back it up.
Stand behind your work as most of here do.
IMO once we are able to do that, we will all be just fine.

But then again what do I know LOL

On a side note paint VS print
paint lasts longer look great
prints are quicker usually look great
customers don't always want to spend the money
prints win out now.
Man am I glad because I can't paint a lick "go on tear me up"

 

[signage]

I think what is happening to this industry is also happening to the other industries.
I have friends in the electrical and HVAC fields and they say it happens but not as fast or easy as getting into signs. Our society is ever changing and for the last decade more and more it seems most are looking for hand outs and free or lower prices. Look what our government wants to do about the mortgage foreclosures, if these people purchased something that they can not afford than why should we (government) bail them out?

 

[OldPaint]

FUNNY, now people with no real art talent are the greatest critics....))))))))))))))))like i said before most of you just wnat to make youreselfs feel better bout you)))))))but that ok, somebody gota luv youre ego....)))))))

 

[Flame]

FUNNY, now people with no real art talent are the greatest critics....))))))))))))))))like i said before most of you just wnat to make youreselfs feel better bout you)))))))but that ok, somebody gota luv youre ego....)))))))

Bro, do me a favor. Wake up tomorrow morning, go to the bathroom, look into the mirror............ and say that exact phrase over again. Then come back and give us the results.

 

[Techman]

Bro, do me a favor. Wake up tomorrow morning, go to the bathroom, look into the mirror............ and say that exact phrase over again. Then come back and give us the results.

Did that make you feel better to say that?

 

[jimmysigns]

all I have to say is that 6 new signs shops opened in my area in the last 5 months. a signarama (they sucked & are for sale again) moved from one town to another, about 5 miles apart, the rite aid drug store that was next to their old location now does signs, lol.
another duo opened about 10 months ago about 7 miles from me, they have a big printer and will work generally for 1/2 of everyone else. One of the partners called me yesterday, here's how the convo went
partner - can I speak to jimmy please
jimmy - u gottem
partner - I'm from hudson valley sign, we would like to get along & work together with you, is that ok?
jimmy - who r u?
partner - he repeats himself then says, you made a chiropractors sign out of wood, we're doing his neighbors sign and they want a sign like you did but we don't know how to do it, also how much did you charge? can you help us?
jimmy - I laughed, told him to get some wood, a jig saw & one shot & u got all the materials and hung up.

this business is really becoming a joke!

 

[Sign_Boy]

all I have to say is that 6 new signs shops opened in my area in the last 5 months. a signarama (they sucked & are for sale again) moved from one town to another, about 5 miles apart, the rite aid drug store that was next to their old location now does signs, lol.
another duo opened about 10 months ago about 7 miles from me, they have a big printer and will work generally for 1/2 of everyone else. One of the partners called me yesterday, here's how the convo went
partner - can I speak to jimmy please
jimmy - u gottem
partner - I'm from hudson valley sign, we would like to get along & work together with you, is that ok?
jimmy - who r u?
partner - he repeats himself then says, you made a chiropractors sign out of wood, we're doing his neighbors sign and they want a sign like you did but we don't know how to do it, also how much did you charge? can you help us?
jimmy - I laughed, told him to get some wood, a jig saw & one shot & u got all the materials and hung up.

this business is really becoming a joke!

I have a rite aid in my shopping center should I worry

some wood - a jig saw & one shot, good one:ROFLMAO:

 

[signage]

I would have told him a hand saw, copping saw, mallet and chisels, some wood and some sign paint:ROFLMAO:

 

[Flame]

Did that make you feel better to say that?

Yup.

 

[blackicefx]

Well.... I guess I'll reply to this one since most of the 'newbie' points seem to point to me. Yes, I have only been in the business full time for about a year now. I used to wholesale part time since 2002. Does that make me any more experienced or knowledgeable? Unfortunately, no. It remained mostly a hobby until this past year. Did I get my start as a sign maker? No. I started by hand cutting all of my graphics for myself, then for others, then for sale as money was offered for my services. Sounds like the typical newbie start right?

On the other hand, I went to school for graphic design/animation. This later changed to business administration. And finally back to graphic design and business. I have formal training on Adobe products and design software. Does this make me a good sign maker? Again, no.

Keep in mind, all of the 'vets of the industry weren't exactly pros when they started... many of you started at home, handmaking your wares just like I did. You may have many years on me, but with the major changes to the industry, some of those years no longer apply as an advantage. I'm not questioning anyone's skills, however. Most of your half-assed designs would blow away my best efforts. I do think all the years of experience have given many of you an elitist point of view when looking at others just getting into the biz. Maybe it's because you see yourself in them and it bothers you?

Granted, all the 'hacks' and newbies being handed all of their tools to get into the business will never understand the intricacies of the industry. But it IS incredibly easier nowadays for ANYONE to get into the business. If I could, I would make some sort of formal education in design or art a requirement. But then, I never finished my degree either.

So, after all that random rambling.... am I a 'hack/newbie' or am I simply a entry level sign maker? There's a fine line between the two that I feel most sign makers overlook.

As far as pricing goes, how did you price when you started out? Did you leave money on the table? I bet for damn sure you did. You probably priced lower than most in your area because like any new business, you were desperate for the sale. Let others work out their pricing schedules, they're simply trying to adjust to the industry norms. This works out better in the long run for everyone. Be glad the newbies are asking you for pricing help. It allows them to remain competitive without gouging everyone else. It's the 'hacks' that don't care what others charge that are trying to lower all the prices.

Matthew
BlackIceFX

*Puts on his newbie flame-resistant suit and helmet* Bring it on!

 

[blackicefx]

hmm for all of the opinions on this topic, I figured there would be more responses...

Matthew
BlackIceFX

 

[Joe Diaz]

You know what, You’re right! Not all newbies are hacks. Not all long time sign makers can be considered sign gods either. But generally speaking, the concept of selling your work for dirt cheap just to get the sale is a mistake that is mostly used by new business. People that have been in this industry long enough know not to do this. But that’s not to say that a small handful of longtime sign makers don’t do this either, there are exceptions to the rule.

Usually these newer shops feel that, because they are new, the only way they can make a sale is to lower their prices well below what is needed to make a profit. What they don’t know is that is hurting them too. And in a few years time, they too will close up their shop. Meanwhile now the expected average cost for custom signs in that market is lower because of that new sign maker, making it harder on every other sign shop in the area.

What the new sign makers that make this mistake don’t know is that there are other alternative to help your business make sales that don’t involve dropping your price. The problem is the other alternatives require more hard work. Like spending every free second you can improving your skills, before you open your shop… so that your quality sells your services not your ultra cheep pricing. The problem is it takes to long to develop these skills and a lot of these guys just jump into the water head first without testing the temperature first. These are the shops that close up due to not having the skills needed and relying on low prices, (which means they aren’t making money either.) The other alternative is actually going door to door; impress your future clients with your tenacity and customer service.
But because these alternatives require more work the novice will instead drops their price just to compete.

We all know sign shops like this. Some sign shops make it and learn from their mistakes but most don’t. This could be the reason why there are way fewer long term shops then the fly-by-night ones. And, this doesn’t change the fact that they are driving down prices and most importantly the public’s opinion of our industry.

Like others have pointed out the same thing happens in a lot of other industries, but in my opinion not quite to this extent. This industry has one of the lowest startup costs, and, the thought that it’s all fun and games and no handwork… the thought that it’s just a hobby… is really hurting this industry, or at least not allowing many of us to reach our full potential and finally get rightfully paid for our talents.

My suggestion to the new folks is: if you want to get into this industry, and there are other existing sign shops in your area, do the rest of us, and yourself a favor, don’t over saturate the market with your operation if you aren’t ready or have a handle on what we do. Try working for that existing shop. Learn from them. Better yourself. That way if you decide to ever start your own business you can compete without low balling everyone.

 

[Sign-Man Signs]

Most of you know where I come from, hand painting sign but I have kept up with sign equipment and computer software since forever. If you don't accept change you suffer.

 

[andy]

I think Joe's point is a good one- you need to carefully consider the pros & CONS of starting in the sign business. Work out properly if there is even a market for your new venture- in many cases local markets are already flooded out with more capacity than there is demand for. If you open a new business in an area where supply far outweighs demand then it's going to be almost impossible to make a go of your business.

This isn't an elitist point of view- it's plain common sense which applies to any business venture in any industry.

In an area where there are too many shops chasing too little work prices always nosedive as there will always be one shop desperate enough or dumb enough to do work for almost nothing. This situation benefits no one except the customer and sets an ongoing precedent for low prices.

It is true to say that a lot of newbies are simply wasting their time and their money opening sign shops where supply already far outstrips demand- I wouldn't open a Coffee shop on the same street as 3 Starbucks- it wouldn't make sense in any way I can think of.

 

[Techman]

I wouldn't open a Coffee shop on the same street as 3 Starbucks- it wouldn't make sense in any way I can think of.

I would. They opened that shop because they checked the demographics. All I have to do is open a shop that has great product service too. I'll get a cut.

 

[hammered]

FUNNY, now people with no real art talent are the greatest critics....))))))))))))))))like i said before most of you just wnat to make youreselfs feel better bout you)))))))but that ok, somebody gota luv youre ego....)))))))

Problem with your statement Op is this. You dont have to be an artist and know bad work. Its a simple matter of perceptive. Now Im not going to bad mouth the work youve posted, but what I will say, its not as was stated "portfolio" work by any means. And to the matter of "most of you just wnat to make youreselfs feel better bout you" its human nature. And if you need, a volume of condescending comments can be druged up that were made by you. That being said, it makes it hard to not jump on the "Bash OP" wagon as soon as you post something, its usally negitive.

Now, many industries are affected in the same way. I do Ornamental Iron furiture on the side as a therepy kinda thing to remind myself why I got into welding and fabricating 25 years ago. I do the sticker printing and cutting for the same reason, to escape the bullshit of an otherwise insane week. A creative release as it were. Signs, Digital Printing and cut vinyl are becoming more of a whime to many. And as such, they dont want to wait. "Can you make this blah blah blah?" "Its gonna take HOW long???" I work straight from forums to get my business and I see this tread happening more and more. Luckily for me, I dont have to take the work. I dont pay my bills with this line of work. Its a hobby for me, BUT I dont need to do this full time to see the issues that are becoming more of a pain for those that do. Ive read this so many times here and its still the best advise Ive recieved, Set yourself apart from your competition . If you paint and many dont, grab the customer's eye. If you do large format printing....

If youre losing business, its my opinion, youre not trying hard enought to find and keep the work. Your customer is smarter now. You have to get smarter as well.

 

[Rick]

hmm for all of the opinions on this topic, I figured there would be more responses...

Matthew
BlackIceFX

Your previous post is the answer to the question i was looking for on your other "calling it quits" thread...

A few of us veteran sign makers are not self taught, I went through a series of sign grunt and design jobs before going on my own. And I know a few who went through some kind of apprenticeship. I can't imagine learning it on my own when there is quite a bit a person needs to learn.

I agree that not all newbies are hacks... but self taught newbies and some self taught intermediate shops are limited on what they can do and learn because time restricts them to getting the experience. Many self taught shops do not have the wider knowledge and skill base to offer clients more that the "average" sign shop.

Some of this stuff can not be learned by reading a forum or magazine or a weekend show. Trail and error can be an expensive substitute for hands on training by a experienced sign craftsman. The only way to get through that (or when times are slow) is a lot of hard work, patience and the ability to recover from mistakes. Some people do not have that talent or ability. The way I was trained may have been harsh, but it taught me to question my work before I present it. I rely on my eye, but I also rely on design "principles", the local and other sign codes, other designers work who I admire, the clients needs, the budget and keeping up with new ways of doing it. Newbies and self-taughts can learn this, but I think it takes a little longer to sink in enough to be part of their internal process. There are exceptions to this but if a sign shop do not develop a process that allows them to grow and learn, they will always be competing with the lower end client and low priced sign shops.

 

[weaselboogie]

I wouldn't open a Coffee shop on the same street as 3 Starbucks- it wouldn't make sense in any way I can think of.

That's what I thought too until I talked with a coffee shop that I do a lot of work for. I told him of a possible starbucks opening by his current location and he thought that would be great. WHA?????

As a matter of fact, he told me that independent coffee rush to open up locations by starbucks. Starbucks doesn't get all of the customers and people tend to migrate to that area of town if they want coffee. Go figure..