Are we a weakening industry? And is it our own fault?

[steve b]

There is only one problem with the sign business. Pricing! Your all too cheap....Or most of ya. Raise the dang prices and forget about newbies. The ( Newbie ) is blamed for way too much around here. Newbies arise in every field in every industry, and that's a fact of life....Deal with it. Look in the mirror before ya start to point blame.

steveb

 

[Fuzzbuster]

Boy...cant reply to that one in a single sentence but anyway..

Newbies coming into this now do have alot more "tools" than when I started.

a paint brush and a can of 1 shot used to be able to bring you at least $400 a day

Sorry boys....Thats 20 years ago!!

now... it`s a different buisness.. like Fred said

It`s evolving everyday

Nothing will ever beat a Professional design and output

amateurs that "think" they can just do this buisness on price usually aren`t around very long
or their work is so sad that customers are few and far

I take pride in what i do and everytime a customer picks up their sign or print or vehicle or whatever... That moment is when I know i`m still in the right buisness.

Yes now things have changed with technology but, it aint over yet

Flatbed printers different ink technologies are comin down the pipeline and when the prices of those things come down below 10k...whatch out!

Every kid on your street will be a "sign maker"

Good design will always be the foundation of a good sign... anyone with google can find out how to produce it but it takes time to develop design skills and how to use them and our tools.

If you dont evolve as the industry is going you`ll be left behind ...eventually

or we all end up like OP:ROFLMAO:

just kiddin oldman

 

[Joe Diaz]

These are some great responses. I posted this to see what a lot of you think, but more importantly how you think. I feel like it’s a great way to get to know you all. I myself am up against the fence with a lot of the topics I brought up. I realize there is no black or white. This is mainly why I wrote the post primarily with questions. I wanted to see what you all thought. After hearing responses from some of you, I find myself changing my way of thinking on some of these topics. Like: “I guess I never thought of it that way.” Which is awesome and reassuring. And as hammered put it, You can’t just blame the newer people for all of the negative sides of our industry. The blame belongs to us all: old timers, newbies, vendors, part timers, full timers. But if we air our dirty laundry and at least realize our problems we are one step closer to trying to fix them.

Cliff brings up another good point. “Make friends not enemies.” Admittedly everyone here at our shop can be bitter on occasion. You often dwell on the bad customers and hardly ever on the good ones. Lately, at our shop, we have been trying take a neutral stance on confrontation. Rather then getting upset at a potential customer for trying to take advantage of our services, we politely tell them our position, declaring that it is “company policy” and if, for example, we can’t start a job without a down payment for one customer, we can’t for all of them. This seems to satisfy every one and we don’t come off looking like a$$h@le$ because, to them, we are simply just doing our jobs and following rules.

In most of these cases you just have to use your best judgment. But that judgment comes from years in the industry and is typically something that most new sign makers haven’t acquired yet. There is no perfect way to teach this knowledge to the new guys. You either keep your mouth shut and keep all your ideas and processes secret, in which case the beginner never learns (your ways) and could possibly continue to make mistakes that effect the industry… the positives of this is that through trial and error and hard work that person will eventually learn and may be better because of it... Or, you tell them every thing you know, in which case some will continue argue with you’re advice even if you’re advice has merit and years of experience to back it up, and they still don’t learn. Or, they will learn form your advice, but the impact of having the answers handed to them is never as great as learning trough trial and error.

Part of me, and I’m stressing “Part of me” wishes we were set up like electricians or plumbers. Where sign makers have to have licenses to do work. Not even so much licenses that regulate the quality of a design, but the safety, longevity and over all quality of a sign. There are definitely some pitfalls to this method but image the good that could come from it. I don’t know, just thinking out loud.

I do know this, some of you kind of brush off these problems saying, “It’s like that for every industry. There is nothing we can do.” It’s not like that for every industry, and there are a lot of things we can do. I refuse to accept the complacency especially when I know things could be better… and that doesn’t just go for the sign industry. And so what if every industry some how has the same problems, why do we have to be the same? Why can’t we be better?

Anyway I’m rambling, and as much as I’m complaining, I want you all to know that I love this job and wouldn’t change it for anything, (even if it isn’t as perfect as I would like it to be.)

 

[Si Allen]

I am very happy that I am not just starting out in this business!

I am still primarily a brush man! After 41 years in this crazy biz, I am not about to change! Did I ever tell you how much that I hate weeding?

I do not compete with any shop. I only do work for my old customer when they can't find anyone that knows how to get the job done, or done correctly!

On a construction job, vinyl does not stick to stucco or brick very well, so paint and a brush are necessary. As long as my prices are not outlandish, they could care less, it is a miniscule part of the overall cost of the project. All they care is that it is done correctly the first time and on schedule!

 

[Mikeifg]

I think everyone has good point's especially Joe. The thing I would like to see is a more private use of this site. What I mean is I've had an experience with a lurker who is my comp. print out some trouble I was having with banners at one time and posted it for customers to see. Anyone else have that trouble? Maybee we need a paid member section for the pros and a general area for the currious and the new start ups to post where we could give advise to them but not an area for lurkers who have bad intentions to get anything negative about our businesses. And maybee a trial basis to before becomming a paid member.

My 2c

Mike

 

[Fred Weiss]

I think everyone has good point's especially Joe. The thing I would like to see is a more private use of this site. What I mean is I've had an experience with a lurker who is my comp. print out some trouble I was having with banners at one time and posted it for customers to see. Anyone else have that trouble? Maybee we need a paid member section for the pros and a general area for the currious and the new start ups to post where we could give advise to them but not an area for lurkers who have bad intentions to get anything negative about our businesses. And maybee a trial basis to before becomming a paid member.

My 2c

Mike

Hmmmmmmm ... now why didn't I think of that.

 

[wellcraftboats]

A new guy seven years ago

I started seven years ago being a former web designer. Luckily since we do this part-time, we either make good money by selling quality or they will have to find someone else. I know of a full-time sign shop in my area that performs work at low prices so bad, I think they are crazy. For some out there, stop giving stuff away. It hurts all of us.

www.outbacksigns.com

 

[Doyle]

Wow, interesting but very long thread....

Some of you may already know, I am a young business owner (25) and have been working in the sign shop that I now own for 8+ years (father used to operate the business). My father loved the work, but was probably a low-baller in his time. It was more of a hobby for him, for me it is my only source of income for over 6 years now and I have definitely learned a lot along the way, and have a growing respect for the seasoned professionals in this industry.

I am, however, still learning how to deal with all of your posted situations.

The competition nosing around my shop and asking about pricing -
Only happened a couple times, and I finally told him to piss off, hasn't been back.

Customer requesting artwork source files -
This is a tough one, and I am still working on this one. I NEVER e-mail a design that a customer has not purchased from me on a sign/graphic of some sort. But I am still trying to figure out my policies to protect my design work and basically let the customer know that those files are not available for their free use and distribution.

Educating my customers about ins/outs of business -
Rarely worth the time, customer rarely cares, why bother?

Selling materials to competition -
Only happened ONCE. A lowballer came in asking about some alumalite for a rush job, absolutely had to get it that day. Happens that I had a bunch of 2' X 4' scraps laying around, offered them to him for $40/ea, he took it, and never came back. Not my problem, do not care to help him out anyway. Otherwise, this has not been a problem for me.

Charity Work -
This has not been a problem for me until this year, the baseball leagues completely screwed me over this year bringing me handfulls of business cards, names and phone numbers to print their sponsor banners for them at near cost (1 out of 10 might have usable vector artwork available). I have had enough, I've got a family to support ad as much as I like helping out, it can get out of hand. Other charities come along, and I will often offer them a 10% discount, but I rarely give anything away.

Free Sketches -
I used to do this, but haven't in almost a year now. If I spend any more time than what is required to give an estimate, you pay first! No artwork comes out of my printer without a deposit check in my hand. I have stuck to this rule and it has worked out pretty well with me, every time that I lay out a sign, I know that I am getting paid for it.

Is the industry weakening???

I don't think so. Comparing to the times when all signs were hand-painted, it sure appears to be much easier to get into the industry, but your quality of work will always speak for itself. There is a place for the basement hobbyists making election signs for $10/ea. And there is a place for the guy who buys a printer so he can make fruity-ass looking banners for $3/sf. But when a sign shop has an established track record for doing great work with the creativity and artistic talents to back it up, I believe that it will follow much longer than a sign guy who has an established track record for doing cheap work. Do we even want the cheap customers? I sure as hell don't.

 

[binki]

#1 problem: Your vendors sell to your customers
#2 problem: Your vendors sell to anyone else

Violating the channel is pretty much the problem with the industry. The only way this gets solved is when our vendors respect our channels or when we offer a better product t a better price. In order to do that, we need to actually produce enough sales to satisfy our vendor and our customers. If we demand dirt cheap prices for equipment and supplies then they will supply them, but to any takers and our customers will go to them.

Also, technology will always change the marketplace. Hand painted signs? Give me a break, look up the definition of luddite. Embrace technology, it creates work and new opportunities.

 

[OldPaint]

Do I dare post a pic of your signs again with your squished up copy and horrible fonts? Hop on down from that horse there OP.

And just because you run a printer doesn't make you what the old timers referred to as "printers". Newstype kind of guys. A printer is a tool, a tool to produce an image you form in your head. Just like a brush, a pencil, a chunk of wax or coal, a plotter, a sandblaster........... they are all tools. I've learned that knocking on someone's tools just means you're jealous because you can't use them.

I use to knock the old time sign painters, but I guess I learned it was just because I was jealous of what some of these guys could do with a brush, that I couldn't.


one sign, outa how many ive produced, should i base youre work on one BMX bike??
see where you box youreself in here?
like i said for that sign, it WAS A 1ST DRAFT, i told the customer that, SHE LIKED IT, BUT WANTED THE STUPID PALM TREES... DID WHAT SHE WANTED, AND GOT PAID WELL!!!! end of story.
so much other stuff ive done, didnt get pictures.
as far as my remarks about PRINTERS, i still say it, PRINTERS IS NOT SIGNMAKERS.(old time PRINTERS) some here KNOW THE DIFFERANCE when they do PRINTED SIGNS, some are pretty good, likei i said SOME!!!!!
as with the PAINT, VINYL or print, some are just not good at any of it.........THESE ARE THE ONES WHO LOWER CLIENTS EXPECTATIONS AND PRICE. i seen so many with VINYL CUTTER do the same thing, only then prices where better and everything wasnt so damn expensive as it is today.
this is the only business i know that it cost more to PRODUCE the product, but people are lowering the prices.....for work done.
i hope this help speedmedia, when i was dealing with PRINTERS(1970-1990's) they was a lota bad eggs....but they wasnt doin signs either.

 

[Techman]

Do I dare post a pic of your signs again with your squished up copy and horrible fonts?

Should we repost some of your stuff too?
OP does lots of work and some of it is good, and some of it is better,, and some of it caters to the cheap low count low price beggers. Personally, If a low count price begger come to my place he gets what he wants. Cheap low count ugly stuff. Same with most of us here.

As for this thread.. Its getting harder to deal with the public. They are getting smarter and better informed and are ignoring hype like never before. They do not fall for the old ways of marketing. The average buyer is inundated with calls, mail, and other junk every day. Most of it goes in one ear and out the other because it does not address what that buyer wants or needs.. It all is focused on themselves bragin on how good they are. All of that is so boring..
Our marketing must be top grade and ready to move at a moments notice. It cannot be boring and it cannot be filled with how good we are and that we use the best materials.. That doesn't matter to him. What matters is that he get more business from that sign. If we cannot show him how this sign wil get him more business then he will look for the cheapest possible outcome. And that means commodity pricing.

 

[andy]

What are the barriers to entering the sign trade? None.

You don't need to make a significant investment based on a proper business plan, you don't even have to be capable of making signs. You can buy the equipment for next to nothing and then bluster your way through production- it's hardly surprising when the standards of this industry start to plummet.

OP is right when he mentions that in the main most new entrants have no better plan to attract business than to simply start a price war- after all lowering your price is the easiest and most obvious way of getting work. This causes havoc- how many newbies with crazy prices fall by the wayside yet leave behind the expectation of cheap as chips prices?

If you are in the same markets as these morons your marketing has to be pretty amazing- if you are an island of realistic pricing in a sea of low ballers then it's going to be tough to explain to buyers why you alone charge double.

Most experienced people worked on the principle of Natural Selection- if you were any good you survived and prospered. If you were rubbish you went and did something else. With the internet this process has been altered to include an easy "pick n mix" way of circumventing the selection process. Not wishing to be harsh but before the internet any one who couldn't get their vinyl cutter to work went out of business- they weren't smart enough to survive- tough on them but better for the industry.

The sign industry is a business and business isn't about hugs and mutual back slapping, it's tough, hard work where the determined and strong minded survive.

 

[Jillbeans]

The sign business as we knew it 20 years ago is virtually dead. But from its ashes has risen a new market for me, that of designing. I still charge what I charge and if the customer wants a cheap licky sticky sign they can go elsewhere. If they want me to put their kid's Microsoft Word layout on a sign, sure I'll do it...for a fee.
You can only educate a client so far.
On those golden days when you do get a client who sees the value of what we offer, it's great. But most days it's a grind of "How much for a set of magnetics?"

To answer your questions:
Competition or new guy wants to know what you charge:
It’s really none of their beeswax . Sometimes I will be a jerk and give a wrong price just to see what happens. But I am rarely asked this.

Customer wants the vector artwork for your sign design on disk or wants you to email it somewhere else (possibly to your competition):
If they are buying a logo package, this service is included if the customer is not computer-savvy enough to send a file somewhere. If they ask me to do it every week, I’d charge $25. If it was someone who bought a one-time sign from me with a layout that they ended up making their “logo” (can’t tell you how many times this has happened) if they want in on disc, it’s $250. I have even had a client let another shop photograph my layout on his truck and use it for digiprints. Bastard.

Speaking of educating the customer, is it worth our time to explain the ins and outs of our business to our customers?:
It depends upon the client. Some don’t care, they just want their sign. Others expect a cost breakdown of sorts. I try to avoid nickle-and-diming. I have a proposal form that they sign which states about “this is the property of such and such” etc.

Selling materials and tools to competition:
Again, rare. But I have done it. I have made patterns for other shops. I have also bought emergncy replacement vinyl from other shops.

Charity Work:
I chose the charity and I choose what I give. I do provide an invoice when donating so that they know the value of what they were given. I always give volunteer fire companies a slight discount, and let them know it.

Free sketches:
Never, ever ever. No deposit no sketch. I have seen too many of my layouts on signs I did not make. I will not even turn on my computer without a deposit. Not even for an existing long-time client. Business is business.

Good post, Joe.
You are very astute for such a young man, musta been your choice in parents.
Love....Jill

 

[Richard Flint]

Great post Joe......

No need to answer all your questions, as others have done it for me. But I will say that an over saturated business of most any type will truly show. The sign business is no exception. Just look around and anyone with any artistic ability can see it's true.

The one thing I see happening quite often are the three most important things most new guys fail to learn. The Basics: Good Layout, Good Color Combination and Good Typestyle Choice.

In my 35 years in this business, things have sure changed alot. But I'm very fortunate to have such a great repeat client base. Most of these folks have been with me for 10-20 years. Some for over 30!

From paint to vinyl to full color digital.....what's next?

Not really sure, but I do know it'll be there for the next generation.

 

[Marlene]

one of the most talented guy in the business is in my area. He has taken many people new to the sign business and has worked with them and has sent them out into the world to open their own shops. Not everyone has that available to them. A lot of sign shops are mom & pop or if they hire, they want experienced people. where are all these jobs that some of the vets here want the newbies to go get and learn from? there really isn't a school for this, there are seminars and design classes, but not much more than that. when a new guy asks a question around here, they are treated like dirt and if they have the guts to stick around, they might get somewhere with asking the "pros". some I would think just give up and go out on their own.

 

[Flame]

Should we repost some of your stuff too?
OP does lots of work and some of it is good, and some of it is better,, and some of it caters to the cheap low count low price beggers. Personally, If a low count price begger come to my place he gets what he wants. Cheap low count ugly stuff. Same with most of us here.

Feel free. Cuz I will openly admit when I started, stuff wasn't looking too hot. Now, 5 years later, I've picked up some stuff but I'm still learning. I am definatly not the most talented person on this site nor in the design world.... heck, I think I still qualify as newb status on most everything.

But you get someone like OP who attacks newbies for their work and lack of skills, but only posts up stuff that looks WORSE than most of the work he criticizes... well, gets old. Talk about double standards. And I know he's your friend Techman, but if a couple friends of mine on here was acting like that, I'd tell it to them straight too. And I'd say it's all part of being a friend.

Personally, If a low count price begger come to my place he gets what he wants. Cheap low count ugly stuff. Same with most of us here.

I hope that's kneejerk, because I simply don't play the price wars. Figured that's how most do it too. You have your product (quality), you have your price (set), if they don't want to pay, they can go elsewhere.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

sorry I've been listening to the creature that calls himself "Old Paint" for well over 10yrs and I have yet to see him post an impressive piece of work, which is fine, not every project needs to be a portfolio piece but the pieces he does choose to share as an example of his "skill" well they make me scratch my head and wonder why he has chosen to 'share' them...

there is nothing wrong with 'everyday work' it is what pays the bills, the portfolio pieces are usually few and far between.. accept it for what it is but it is frightening when someone who believes that their skills are so incredible posts work that is below mediocre and believes it to be a masterpiece...truly delusional

 

[Marlene]

I have no problem with OP putting out stuff that doesn't seem up to most peoples standards, it's what he does. what I do have a problem with is the jumping on new guys about their lack of talent. Flame is right on so many levels. when he first came here, he was a newbie with not the greatest design skills. he listened, he wroked hard and it shows in his work. for OP to continue to question his work has now become a pain as I haven't seen any progress in his talents the way I have Flame's. OP does everday work as Dan put it and it pays the bills. It's time for him to lay off. I really hate saying that a person's work is crappy but when some one continues to bring it up as an example of talent, he's got to expect this.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Regardless whether or not you like OP’s work, he does bring up some valid points.

As Jill pointed out, I’m still pretty young, but I’ve been raised in the sign industry and know more “old school” sign makers then most my age, infact I work for one every day. I don’t consider myself a painter, but whether or not the guys and gals I look up to respect me or not, I do know that they respect the fact that I do at least try to paint and understand where they are coming from. At every event I attend I here this debate over and over again: The old way vs. the computers. I like to think I have an understanding of both sides of this argument.

Many people on this forum and even the “old timers” have admitted that terrible signs were being produced long before computers. But I guarantee you this, and I dare you to ask any old timer, you just didn’t have many people, if any at all, that started up because it was a “hobby”. It just wasn’t done. You needed some kind of skill and it was too much hard work to become just halfway decent that it would normally scare of anyone who tried but didn’t take that trade seriously. I hate that word: “hobby” Nothing makes me angrier then the people with audacity to think that what I do for a living can be done as a hobby. It’s insulting. If anything is hurting this industry it’s that mentality. We need to do something to fix that.

If the average person thinks that they can easily enter this line of work, with no previous first hand knowledge or skills, we have a problem. Maybe we aren’t educating the public enough? And it’s not so much the over saturation of these people that blindly jump into this industry. That isn’t nearly as bothersome. It’s the lack of understanding and respect the general public must have for this to even be considered.

And for the record I never once tried to point all the blame on the newbies. We are just as responsible for the state of this industry, infact, that was the whole point of this post, is it the veterans’ fault for the negative aspects of this industry? And why do the rookies always wine that vets are picking on them. If anything this industry is full of veteran sign makers that have been more then helpful with sharing information. Like Marlene said, Flame has gotten better over the years, do you think the veterans “picking” on him was a factor? There is a reason some of these guys and gals have been at it for so long. They know what they are doing, Why do some of these new guys argue with them? And why do the Vets allow it to continue to happen and continue giving free advice? It makes you wonder.

When I played football in high school, my coach would often say, “I pick on you because I care”

 

[Marlene]

some of the threads where new guys have posted have had the pick on the new guy with valid info thrown in. most are just tell them to find an other line of work or worse. I don't think Flame got where he is today from being picked on. He had the drive to learn and was able to wade thru all the crap thrown at him. I remember him posting design after design and getting all the puts downs with a few pointers. I don't credit this site for his growing as a sign person as we aren't that great around here but he used it as one of his sources to learn. what I've seen lately around here is a real lack of people who are vets in the business stepping up and helping any more.