Backlit Vinyl Bubbling After 3 Years

[Moze]

This isn't a result of anything you guys did. If something is going to happen to the vinyl like this, it's not going to take three years. It's going to happen pretty quickly. That being said, that's an insane amount of bubbles and apparently only on the darker portion (unless the letters are weeded) of the vinyl, which makes me think it's full of boiling water lol....very odd. I would 100% bet it has something to do with the rain and maybe electrical?

 

[JBurton]

My go to is 'the sun will take it out in a few days'. Have you tried suggesting that to the customer?

 

[gnubler]

You mean like a solar flare? Or maybe an asteroid.
Flamethrower would smooth that vinyl out nicely, too.

 

[Boudica]

I want someone to pop one of those bubbles and tell us what's inside...

 

[VizualVoice]

You know now someone will come in and ask you for "that cool texture I saw on this sign downtown"

 

[Joesignshop]

same exact thing happend to me. Used 3 different types of vinyl 3m, oracal, printed vinyl, before I figured it was the lexan. I used translucent white 'plexiglass' with black vinyl- problem solved. Still looks perfect. It had everything to do with the LEXAN, black vinyl and the sun blasting it. I truly believe there is a chemical reaction with black and lexan sometimes happening quicker or even years later.

 

[Action Mary]

I agree with Joesignshop. It's the Lexan. I had this happen a few years ago but in my case, it was fall and the Lexan was cold when I applied it. (not freezing, just cold) It went on nice. The Lexan warmed up in the shop overnight, and in the morning I came in to bubbles. I should have waited and let the Lexan warm up completely overnight first, but it was a rush job. I am thinking the weather is the cause. Have you been having extreme temperature changes?

 

[GAC05]

I want someone to pop one of those bubbles and tell us what's inside...

From what I have gleaned from this forum and other social media it is probably gender fluid.

 

[GAC05]

“OUTGASSING” & VINYL APPLICATION to TUFFAK® POLYCARBONATE MONOLITHIC SHEET Tuffak® polycarbonate monolithic sheets are not known to “outgas” in the traditional sense of the term. For example, new car odors are attributed to plastics, adhesives and sealers found in the interior of automobiles. As these materials continue to cure, they release fumes of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) into the air. Odors may also come from phthalates and other plastic softening chemicals that outgas over time. Conversely, polycarbonate’s “outgassing” is primarily due to water moisture trapped in an undriedsheet. Polycarbonate readily absorbs moisture soon after manufacturing. To remove this moisture, which often interferes with vinyl adhesion resulting in bubbles under the vinyl film, polycarbonate should be dried prior to film application. Suggestions for successful vinyl application: • Remove protective masking from the surface which is to receive vinyl film. • Pre-dryingthe sheet for a minimumof one hour at 250°F(flash drying) promotes surface dryness conducive to good film adhesion. • Polycarbonate begins to reabsorb moisture upon cooling. It is imperative that the vinyl application process begins immediately once the sheethas reachedroom temperature. • Wipe the sheet with an antistatic rag or blow deionized compressed air over the sheet to remove any built up electric charge and particles of dust. • Vinyl is best applied as free film immediately after being stripped away from the release liner. • The squeegee should be dragged at a shallow angle for effective and stretch free work. Keep the vinyl unattached to the sheet surface for as long as practical by lifting it; this keeps trapped fluid to a minimum and helps avoid wrinkling along the edges. • When applying graphics, always start in the center of the sheet. Apply enough squeegee pressure to force any application fluid out from under the vinyl and always use overlapping strokes. Lay down and make substrate contact with the area of film to which you can apply high-squeegee pressure. While squeegeeing, work from the center outwards toward the edge and from the top down, in overlapping strokes. • Re-squeegee the film after 15 minutes from the initial film application. Use the release liner that’s been removed previously and overlay it on top of the applied film. This protects the film from scuffing and scratches by the applicator. Re-squeegee the surface as though it were for the first time. This helps promote adhesion. • SPECIAL NOTE: Only use commercial grade application fluids, not plain soap and water. Rapid Tac I is an Ethyl alcohol based application fluid which is more aggressive on polycarbonate and preferred over Rapid Tac II, an Isopropyl based solution. IPA is very good for removing surface contaminates, but Rapid Tac I will consistently offer better film to PC adhesion. Always confirm with the film’s manufacturer their product works well on polycarbonate. Once validated, review and verify the film manufacturer’s application procedures. If instructions are unclear, ask for guidance from the manufacturer on ways to avoid their film from bubbling up – vinyl film manufacturers may have additional application ideas on how this application may be completed successfully.
edit:

https://plaskolite.com/docs/default-source/tuffak-assets/technical-documents/outgassing-msc115.pdf

3 years does seem like a long time for this to show up. Maybe climate change is a thing....

 

[Sky Bryan]

I have seen this several times, all with dark opaqe vinyl or printed graphics coated with clear vinyl applied onto white Lexan. As stated by others this is caused by the Lexan (polycarbonate) heating up and off gassing. I recommend translucent vinyl as it has microscopic holes for the outgassing. Otherwise peel the lexan and wait a couple weeks. I feel 3 years is past a warantee but I would consider replacing the graphics at cost for a good client.

 

[GaSouthpaw]

One possible explanation could also be that Oracal's Tech Data Sheet says that material is calendared, whereas the 3M laminate you used is cast- though that would usually cause weird shrinkage more than anything, and would (most likely) show up long before three years had passed.
Interestingly, pretty much every media says (just like this Oracal does) that it has a seven year life-span- but that's always qualified as unprinted. Once the ink is there, that lifespan drops and you have to do some serious digging to find info on that. In many cases, that number is three years- but it's only warranted if you use the manufacturer-spec'd laminate, inks, ink coverage, etc. If you're providing a warranty beyond that, may I suggest doing the digging for that info and making sure you're not providing a warranty that's above and beyond? Doesn't help you here, but it might in the future.
Like a few others mentioned, though, I'd think the more likely culprit is the unusual amount of rain your area has had recently causing issues that are really beyond anything anyone would expect. Hopefully the customer is reasonable if you're offering a discount on replacing the graphics. If they were already in the process of want to change the graphics when this occurred, I'd explain the "act of god" (or whatever) circumstances and sell the the change at your normal price (maybe tossing in a small discount as a good faith measure).
In any case, best of luck.

 

[Manuel Upton]

Thank you. This the first I have heard this. You are saying that after removing the protective film, the Lexan should sit for a week before applying vinyl?

We had issues with some 3M airfree clear vinyl bubbling on Lexan a while back. (ours showed up immediately once the sun hit the faces). 3M said we needed to bake the sheets before installing the vinyl. We've since changed to some Arlon clear wet install vinyl and have not had any problems since.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

“OUTGASSING” & VINYL APPLICATION to TUFFAK® POLYCARBONATE MONOLITHIC SHEET Tuffak® polycarbonate monolithic sheets are not known to “outgas” in the traditional sense of the term. For example, new car odors are attributed to plastics, adhesives and sealers found in the interior of automobiles. As these materials continue to cure, they release fumes of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) into the air. Odors may also come from phthalates and other plastic softening chemicals that outgas over time. Conversely, polycarbonate’s “outgassing” is primarily due to water moisture trapped in an undriedsheet. Polycarbonate readily absorbs moisture soon after manufacturing. To remove this moisture, which often interferes with vinyl adhesion resulting in bubbles under the vinyl film, polycarbonate should be dried prior to film application. Suggestions for successful vinyl application: • Remove protective masking from the surface which is to receive vinyl film. • Pre-dryingthe sheet for a minimumof one hour at 250°F(flash drying) promotes surface dryness conducive to good film adhesion. • Polycarbonate begins to reabsorb moisture upon cooling. It is imperative that the vinyl application process begins immediately once the sheethas reachedroom temperature. • Wipe the sheet with an antistatic rag or blow deionized compressed air over the sheet to remove any built up electric charge and particles of dust. • Vinyl is best applied as free film immediately after being stripped away from the release liner. • The squeegee should be dragged at a shallow angle for effective and stretch free work. Keep the vinyl unattached to the sheet surface for as long as practical by lifting it; this keeps trapped fluid to a minimum and helps avoid wrinkling along the edges. • When applying graphics, always start in the center of the sheet. Apply enough squeegee pressure to force any application fluid out from under the vinyl and always use overlapping strokes. Lay down and make substrate contact with the area of film to which you can apply high-squeegee pressure. While squeegeeing, work from the center outwards toward the edge and from the top down, in overlapping strokes. • Re-squeegee the film after 15 minutes from the initial film application. Use the release liner that’s been removed previously and overlay it on top of the applied film. This protects the film from scuffing and scratches by the applicator. Re-squeegee the surface as though it were for the first time. This helps promote adhesion. • SPECIAL NOTE: Only use commercial grade application fluids, not plain soap and water. Rapid Tac I is an Ethyl alcohol based application fluid which is more aggressive on polycarbonate and preferred over Rapid Tac II, an Isopropyl based solution. IPA is very good for removing surface contaminates, but Rapid Tac I will consistently offer better film to PC adhesion. Always confirm with the film’s manufacturer their product works well on polycarbonate. Once validated, review and verify the film manufacturer’s application procedures. If instructions are unclear, ask for guidance from the manufacturer on ways to avoid their film from bubbling up – vinyl film manufacturers may have additional application ideas on how this application may be completed successfully.
edit:

https://plaskolite.com/docs/default-source/tuffak-assets/technical-documents/outgassing-msc115.pdf

3 years does seem like a long time for this to show up. Maybe climate change is a thing....

Whoa...so we're supposed to bake these sheets for an hour?

 

[Gino]

I'll betcha anything, this vinyl was applied on the third tuesday of the month......... and everyone knows you cannot use polycarb on the 3rd tuesday. Otherwise, it voids all warranties asin :

DISCLAIMER: These suggestions and data are based on information we believe to be reliable. They are offered in good faith, but without guarantee, as conditions and methods of use are beyond our control. We recommend that the prospective user determine the suitability of our materials and suggestions before adopting them on a commercial scale.

 

[AGinVT]

One possible explanation could also be that Oracal's Tech Data Sheet says that material is calendared, whereas the 3M laminate you used is cast- though that would usually cause weird shrinkage more than anything, and would (most likely) show up long before three years had passed.
Interestingly, pretty much every media says (just like this Oracal does) that it has a seven year life-span- but that's always qualified as unprinted. Once the ink is there, that lifespan drops and you have to do some serious digging to find info on that. In many cases, that number is three years- but it's only warranted if you use the manufacturer-spec'd laminate, inks, ink coverage, etc. If you're providing a warranty beyond that, may I suggest doing the digging for that info and making sure you're not providing a warranty that's above and beyond? Doesn't help you here, but it might in the future.
Like a few others mentioned, though, I'd think the more likely culprit is the unusual amount of rain your area has had recently causing issues that are really beyond anything anyone would expect. Hopefully the customer is reasonable if you're offering a discount on replacing the graphics. If they were already in the process of want to change the graphics when this occurred, I'd explain the "act of god" (or whatever) circumstances and sell the the change at your normal price (maybe tossing in a small discount as a good faith measure).
In any case, best of luck.

Thank you for the suggestions. We sometimes use cast laminates on certain materials like 3M40C (intermediate calendared), but I was under the impression that applying cast over calendared would not have any ill effects. I know that the reverse can be an issue, but was under the assumption that as long as the laminate was as good or better than the vinyl, there wouldn't be problem.

I have suggested that the weather may be the culprit with the client, but we will probably still foot the bill anyway.

 

[AGinVT]

Good suggestion. We do print on an opaque film, but none of our printers have the ability to print white, so we don't have much choice in the matter. They are a good client with many locations, so I am teetering between free and at cost.

 

[AGinVT]

“OUTGASSING” & VINYL APPLICATION to TUFFAK® POLYCARBONATE MONOLITHIC SHEET Tuffak® polycarbonate monolithic sheets are not known to “outgas” in the traditional sense of the term. For example, new car odors are attributed to plastics, adhesives and sealers found in the interior of automobiles. As these materials continue to cure, they release fumes of Volatile Organic Compounds (VOCs) into the air. Odors may also come from phthalates and other plastic softening chemicals that outgas over time. Conversely, polycarbonate’s “outgassing” is primarily due to water moisture trapped in an undriedsheet. Polycarbonate readily absorbs moisture soon after manufacturing. To remove this moisture, which often interferes with vinyl adhesion resulting in bubbles under the vinyl film, polycarbonate should be dried prior to film application. Suggestions for successful vinyl application: • Remove protective masking from the surface which is to receive vinyl film. • Pre-dryingthe sheet for a minimumof one hour at 250°F(flash drying) promotes surface dryness conducive to good film adhesion. • Polycarbonate begins to reabsorb moisture upon cooling. It is imperative that the vinyl application process begins immediately once the sheethas reachedroom temperature. • Wipe the sheet with an antistatic rag or blow deionized compressed air over the sheet to remove any built up electric charge and particles of dust. • Vinyl is best applied as free film immediately after being stripped away from the release liner. • The squeegee should be dragged at a shallow angle for effective and stretch free work. Keep the vinyl unattached to the sheet surface for as long as practical by lifting it; this keeps trapped fluid to a minimum and helps avoid wrinkling along the edges. • When applying graphics, always start in the center of the sheet. Apply enough squeegee pressure to force any application fluid out from under the vinyl and always use overlapping strokes. Lay down and make substrate contact with the area of film to which you can apply high-squeegee pressure. While squeegeeing, work from the center outwards toward the edge and from the top down, in overlapping strokes. • Re-squeegee the film after 15 minutes from the initial film application. Use the release liner that’s been removed previously and overlay it on top of the applied film. This protects the film from scuffing and scratches by the applicator. Re-squeegee the surface as though it were for the first time. This helps promote adhesion. • SPECIAL NOTE: Only use commercial grade application fluids, not plain soap and water. Rapid Tac I is an Ethyl alcohol based application fluid which is more aggressive on polycarbonate and preferred over Rapid Tac II, an Isopropyl based solution. IPA is very good for removing surface contaminates, but Rapid Tac I will consistently offer better film to PC adhesion. Always confirm with the film’s manufacturer their product works well on polycarbonate. Once validated, review and verify the film manufacturer’s application procedures. If instructions are unclear, ask for guidance from the manufacturer on ways to avoid their film from bubbling up – vinyl film manufacturers may have additional application ideas on how this application may be completed successfully.
edit:

https://plaskolite.com/docs/default-source/tuffak-assets/technical-documents/outgassing-msc115.pdf

3 years does seem like a long time for this to show up. Maybe climate change is a thing....

That was a lot of information. Thank you. We follow most of this, more or less, with the exception of the drying of the Polycarbonate prior to application. We can certainly start removing the protective sheeting as soon as the boards come in, but I wonder what the process is to bring the temp to 250F? Outside of heat guns, we don't really have away to do this. I'm not sure what equipment in a standard sign shop would achieve this?

 

[MarkSnelling]

I have to wonder why it appears only the black areas bubbled? Or is that just the way it looks in the picture?

 

[Manuel Upton]

Whoa...so we're supposed to bake these sheets for an hour?

This is the report 3M sent me when I questioned them about why our vinyl was bubbling so bad on poly. It basically says the same thing, bake at 250 for an hour. We have not had issues since moving away from air egress vinyl though.

 

[White Haus]

This is the report 3M sent me when I questioned them about why our vinyl was bubbling so bad on poly. It basically says the same thing, bake at 250 for an hour. We have not had issues since moving away from air egress vinyl though.

Wow, that's a hell of a report. Very interesting.

I'd still love to know how they expect most shops to "bake" their large sign faces for an hour.