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- Thread starter mike052082
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Fred Weiss
Merchant Member
On surface, that sounds like an obvious thing to do but the ramifications on our traffic and registration of qualified new members would be impacted making us a less attractive place to advertise. That was the idea behind the premium forums ... which has been supported by enough to keep it in place but not enough to replace ad revenue.
Understand this. I am totally supportive of the idea of a professional members only site. But such a business model is likely not viable. So if the business model is to be the selling of advertising supplemented by paid subscription, then I am highly dubious of placing any more barriers to keeping up the flow of new members ... which is what Stephanie's suggestion would represent.
Our primary goal at Signs 101 is to be a resource to help professionals be more proficient and more profitable. That goal is being met on a daily basis. But Signs 101 is still a business that must cover its overhead and pay a wage to those who labor to make it run. Since the overwhelming number of members don't support paying anything for what they derive from Signs 101, our business model is to provide enough traffic to attract advertisers. The flip side of that is that some of that traffic doesn't conform to our desired member criteria.
For now, that's just something we have to accept because the benefits, hopefully, outweigh the costs.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
i know from multiple conversation and multiple messages that there are many ppl that would pay for this to be a private industry site...in my opinion you could charege much more per member. just a suggestion there are also multiple ppl that i know of that would pay to help support the site that simply find no value in the premium section or are opposed to it for a variety of reasons some as trivial as the premium subscriber versus non paying superiority that some members try to make into something it is not and never will be..i think that you are missing a stream of revenue by not having a means to accept those support.
there i put my money where my mouth is for financial support of this site in a way other than subscriber.
there i put my money where my mouth is for financial support of this site in a way other than subscriber.
I think Steph makes a very valid argument and states a good case, it's too bad it will get lost in this obscure thread. I understand your philosophy Fred and rarely disagree with any point you make but I've always been unsure of this dual existence at Signs101, though unfortunately I don't have the solution. I'd bet though, if you stated that this was to become a paid forum and all free members had 30 days to join or the lights go out...you'd have your 1000 paid members.
redline graphics
New Member
Bigdawg
Just Me
I have to ask...
How did you guys find signs 101???
Most of our members find us through an internet search engine... some from referrals. But mostly through searches. The door slams shut on that once you put the whole site behind a paid wall. I personally am not too hip on that idea - I think the bad outweighs the good in doing that. It will instantly stop new membership when the site can't be indexed or crawled by the search engines... the community stops being open and we have those thousand members. But only those thousand members. Whoopee - we become a stagnant site with no growth.
That is not moving forward IMHO.
How did you guys find signs 101???
Most of our members find us through an internet search engine... some from referrals. But mostly through searches. The door slams shut on that once you put the whole site behind a paid wall. I personally am not too hip on that idea - I think the bad outweighs the good in doing that. It will instantly stop new membership when the site can't be indexed or crawled by the search engines... the community stops being open and we have those thousand members. But only those thousand members. Whoopee - we become a stagnant site with no growth.
That is not moving forward IMHO.
BobM
New Member
Part of the enjoyment of Signs 101 for me is the Newbies questions and the wide variety of responses they get. From geniune help to the "get out of towners". We can all learn something from almost every post, even if it's complaints about how the poster was being treated by a sign shop or designer.
In this case, as I learned more about what he was looking for and that he had already "bellied up to the bar" for software, I found his request to be more credible. I wouldn't spend that kind of money without exploring outside options, like using Merchant Members from Signs 101.
He's a long way from "I just bought a Cricket and I am in the sign business".
In this case, as I learned more about what he was looking for and that he had already "bellied up to the bar" for software, I found his request to be more credible. I wouldn't spend that kind of money without exploring outside options, like using Merchant Members from Signs 101.
He's a long way from "I just bought a Cricket and I am in the sign business".
signage
New Member
I hate to rehash on issues that were brought up in the past! But I agreee with Fred and BigDawg about the forum being closed, but I also think that certain info Pricing, suppliers and manufacturing techniques should only be allowed to be posted in the Premium section. Now general answers on pricing like having to know you overhead and costs with any number should be fine in the open forum but any actual numbers should only be permitted in the premium section! If my memory is correct Myself and Gino said this when the discussion/survey was posted in the past on this very issue!
One other thing is that it isn't the easiest thing to tell the difference between the premium section and the general section when viewing threads here on 101! I would suggest if at all possible to some sort of color scheme for the premium section if possible, this may somewhat stop some of the postings of numbers in the non-premium section.
One other thing is that it isn't the easiest thing to tell the difference between the premium section and the general section when viewing threads here on 101! I would suggest if at all possible to some sort of color scheme for the premium section if possible, this may somewhat stop some of the postings of numbers in the non-premium section.
astro8
New Member
The moment that Signs101 becomes a paid only membership the place will start to die.
It needs the traffic and the diversity of posts to remain an interesting place.
I have no real interest in conversing with signmakers with similiar experience to my own...they are a pretty stale conversations.
I don't come here for answers or to post questions or to talk about industry trends or how to market my business, I don't need to.
I come here for the entertainment...
It needs the traffic and the diversity of posts to remain an interesting place.
I have no real interest in conversing with signmakers with similiar experience to my own...they are a pretty stale conversations.
I don't come here for answers or to post questions or to talk about industry trends or how to market my business, I don't need to.
I come here for the entertainment...
You simply get toooo much for free here. It would be good if the site were structured like all those bidding sites where they tell you about all the bid opportunities but unless you join the only thing you see is what information you are not getting for free. Free members should get to see all the thread titles but not the threads. Maybe they should have 24 hour preview after which they would have to re-register every 24 hours to continue being free, make them put forth effort if not cash. Let me tell you, in my case it actually took me a couple of years to become a premium member simply because I didn't understand what that was, after all I was participating in the forums, it was working, I thought I had it all already, what is this talk of paying for something....well, I finally figured it out, brain surgeon that I am, and now premium membership is a spit in the ocean that I will always pay. I am amazed at the long time members that remain free and have an attitude at that....pitiful if you ask me.
jbennett
New Member
The dentist says that I am going to need a root canal. Even with insurance, my part is going to be pretty expensive. I have had a root canal before and I kinda remember the steps the dentist took. Can anyone point me in the right direction of the tools that I could get at Home Depot in order to just do it myself? I think most any of the basic Dremel tools should work just as well as his high priced equipment. Has anyone ever tried JB Kwik as a filler? If I see that I can't accomplish it myself, I have a nephew that is pretty good with woodworking tools, so I might let him do it.
Honestly, think about it. Not much different than the questions people ask on here is it? Only difference is that I didn't post it on a dental board. I can't help it if I am a little jaded. One of my "customers" is telling that there is nothing to what I do, and the material is cheap. I say go for it!!
Like Gino said "the school of Hard Knocks". That's where my diploma is from.
jbennett
Honestly, think about it. Not much different than the questions people ask on here is it? Only difference is that I didn't post it on a dental board. I can't help it if I am a little jaded. One of my "customers" is telling that there is nothing to what I do, and the material is cheap. I say go for it!!
Like Gino said "the school of Hard Knocks". That's where my diploma is from.jbennett
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Bigdawg.....
I found out through a friend that was very active in the sign business. I believe we all attract sameness. If a signmaker is here... he will tell HIS/HER friend in the business as to the value and comradery about this place or any other place where it can benefit their friends.... and their respective business. By the same token, you get some hack or pissed off customer from an over priced or under-serviced sign shop.... he/she will tell their friends of the savings and benefits as to the buying power and knowledge you can use against your local sign shop. Do people lie to get on this forum.... you bet your sweet butt they do. It's a proven fact over and over again. It's no one's fault, but it happens. So, for our second line of defense against these people.... I suggest not giving valuable information out on the free forums. Are people going to start joining to possibly find out trade pricing or suppliers that sell to end users ?? Probably, but unlikely, if we make the 'Paid' section worth your while and raise the ante..... maybe not. 
That is why I disagree with putting so much information out here in the Peanut Gallery. It's fine for discussing the basics and how to's, but getting into the real nitty-gritty just floors me when some of these people say.... "Are you afraid of a little competition ??' Heck no, not me, but you just spoiled it for someone.... somewhere.
There are quite a few people on this site and others that by all sensible reasoning... should not be here... whether for vendor/customer relations or just plain pricing secrets.... but why give information out the way some of you do here ?? You just might as well post a sign on your door telling everyone what you pay for everything, how much or little you do know about your business and put a beggars cup at the front door.
I would like to be fair and just talk about this some more.... but don't you all think we have completely
Mike's original request and turned this inside out for him and are burying some very important information where many don't even know to go to ??
Why don't we discuss this in the 'Premium ' section where it will do some good and when we have our thoughts about us.... we can post a new one out here in the free section ??
I found out through a friend that was very active in the sign business. I believe we all attract sameness. If a signmaker is here... he will tell HIS/HER friend
That is why I disagree with putting so much information out here in the Peanut Gallery. It's fine for discussing the basics and how to's, but getting into the real nitty-gritty just floors me when some of these people say.... "Are you afraid of a little competition ??' Heck no, not me, but you just spoiled it for someone.... somewhere.
There are quite a few people on this site and others that by all sensible reasoning... should not be here... whether for vendor/customer relations or just plain pricing secrets.... but why give information out the way some of you do here ?? You just might as well post a sign on your door telling everyone what you pay for everything, how much or little you do know about your business and put a beggars cup at the front door.
I would like to be fair and just talk about this some more.... but don't you all think we have completely
Mike's original request and turned this inside out for him and are burying some very important information where many don't even know to go to ??Why don't we discuss this in the 'Premium ' section where it will do some good and when we have our thoughts about us.... we can post a new one out here in the free section ??
Headhunterx
New Member
This place should be RE-Named "Bitching 101" . When I came here it was through a search and this place was FRIENDLY. Now all you high posters do is be-little the person that comes here to learn. I have been designing things from custom cars, wheels, making molds designing graphics, posters had my own photo processing (Custom work) when you used film and about anything else you can think of and have been self taught in all of them. I did not know about signs and came here to learn about printers. But now this place has changed and if I was a new person that stumbled on to this place and it has a newb place to post and the first thing someone told me how stupid for thinking I could do something that is magic, voodoo, and you have to have a degree in ASSHOLEISM I would leave this place so fast..... You people need to remember the first time you made a design,sign, or wrote you name for the first time!!
SO HAVE AT FLAME ME ALL YOU WANT I DON'T CARE!!!
Richard
SO HAVE AT FLAME ME ALL YOU WANT I DON'T CARE!!!
Richard
Well, i was referred to signs101 from signweb.com There's been numerous times where I have searched different things like on web design, truck parts, jeep jamborees ect. and something will pop up in google and look interesting and i click on it and it says that i have to be logged in to view it.
I'll give you an example here.
Still a free site. There is just a wall. No window. You have to register to view it.
How many of you members have ever not been logged in and actually look at the site for a day? The outsourcing section is viewable without being logged in, and there is your list of links to go to with the MM's.
I'm not trying to stir up trouble, and I apologize posting it, but, in all reality, i've taken notice that the trailer manufacturers we order from to the truck accessories we get, companies are investing into there own equipment to make decals, logo stickers, banners and posters and paying employees to learn it. Will it hurt us? I don't know. But I just got 2 1'x6' banners from a company that makes grilles for trucks for free with our business name designed into the banner. I'm sure they would not supply me that for free if they had to pay a sign shop to do it.
I just think that it would be worth trying to make a private forum. I did not mention it being a paying forum. Like I stated, it'd still be search engine friendly, but you simply would have to register to view the content, other then thatm you'd be left hanging with the 2 line sentence in the google page about what your after.
There could still be a premium section for people more serious about designing, pricing etc, and it simply would not be viewable like it is now.
I'll give you an example here.
Still a free site. There is just a wall. No window. You have to register to view it.
How many of you members have ever not been logged in and actually look at the site for a day? The outsourcing section is viewable without being logged in, and there is your list of links to go to with the MM's.
I'm not trying to stir up trouble, and I apologize posting it, but, in all reality, i've taken notice that the trailer manufacturers we order from to the truck accessories we get, companies are investing into there own equipment to make decals, logo stickers, banners and posters and paying employees to learn it. Will it hurt us? I don't know. But I just got 2 1'x6' banners from a company that makes grilles for trucks for free with our business name designed into the banner. I'm sure they would not supply me that for free if they had to pay a sign shop to do it.
I just think that it would be worth trying to make a private forum. I did not mention it being a paying forum. Like I stated, it'd still be search engine friendly, but you simply would have to register to view the content, other then thatm you'd be left hanging with the 2 line sentence in the google page about what your after.
There could still be a premium section for people more serious about designing, pricing etc, and it simply would not be viewable like it is now.
Just Another Sign Guy
New Member
The Vector Doctor
Chief Bezier Manipulator
Blame the internet on most of it. 20 years ago it was not so easy to find out everything you've ever wanted about anything. Think about it. Pretty much everything is a couple of clicks away. We think we can be an expert at anything. Technology is making everything convenient and the media and commercialism is convincing us that we can do all of it ourselves.
Before computers there were alot fewer designers/artists than before. When I graduated from college we were the first group to use computers (early Macs). The classes before me exclusively used markers, mechanical pencils, rub on letters, airbrushes, and ink to draw up logos and posters. So I had experience with both. Computers were in their infancy when it came to "art".
Now you can buy clipart, fonts, images by the millions on 1 cd, or download all the art you could want for free. The software companies are producing programs that make it easier for the average joe to come up with a logo or brochure. Publisher, Hallmark greeting card and banner makers, photoshop elements, etc. Why should they pay a designer to come up with business cards, logos, brochures, signs etc. when they can do it themselves? Need a bulldog on your business card? No need to contact someone to draw one up... just google it, copy and paste, done. The secretary can do it. Now they can take their Publisher file to the sign shop and get their logo on the side of their van and they did not have to pay someone to design it for them. Pesky artists.
Wait forget the sign shop.. let me go to the office supply store to pick up some some paper, pens and my magnetics for my van right after I get groceries.
Now let's say they want to go a step further and have an "artist" come up with a logo. They can go to a website with pre-designed logos. All they have to add is their name, pay $30 and presto. Custom logo. I use the word custom loosely. Or maybe they don't want a canned logo. There are websites where they can post a request and get a dozen logos from a dozen different designers and they get to pick the right one. That is convenient, except to the other 11 "designers" who won't get paid for their work. Or what about competing against someone who does a logo for $50 since they are working from Nepal and $50 is a ransom. With the internet, suddenly you are competing with the world.
No need to pay a photographer for my background image. I can copy it from a google search or pay a few bucks. Done.
Heck you can even order your banners and get them next day from just about anywhere. Why bother going down the street and support your local shop? I can design it online, see what it will look like and have it in my hands the next day
Even the equipment mfr's are making it easy to start. "Pay 1 price for a sign shop in a box, everything you need to start your own vinyl/graphics printing business". As if success is guaranteed. You've got the equipment, so customers will coming knocking down your doors
It is all about convenience. Every bit of our lives has become this way. Everything is easily accessible and nearly instantaneous. Technology is being pushed down our throat. You don't have to work hard in many instances. Very little effort is required. There is a lot of good from technology and I am not complaining about all of it, but understand why it is happening
I still believe we need a FAQ section that we can redirect all new members to when they ask questions
Why not have a dozen or so of the most asked questions with concise friendly "canned" answers
It would be so much easier to say for instance.... "check the following link" when answering a question and being done with it. No more replies, close the thread or leave it alone. We could have a canned response as to why the signs101 community are being vague. I don't see anything wrong with suggesting that an answer to a very complex question require a membership. Or anything that is sensitive like pricing, business practices, etc. We can still have the "101" feel to it but protect some other info.
Like it or not, new people are getting into the sign business just like everything else. The economy is making people look at every possible money making opportunity more than ever. Being rude will not change their minds, but an honest friendly FAQ section saying the same thing will at least make them ponder it for a moment.
We are not going to change anyone's minds by being rude. They will just go elsewhere and that is not good for this site.
Before computers there were alot fewer designers/artists than before. When I graduated from college we were the first group to use computers (early Macs). The classes before me exclusively used markers, mechanical pencils, rub on letters, airbrushes, and ink to draw up logos and posters. So I had experience with both. Computers were in their infancy when it came to "art".
Now you can buy clipart, fonts, images by the millions on 1 cd, or download all the art you could want for free. The software companies are producing programs that make it easier for the average joe to come up with a logo or brochure. Publisher, Hallmark greeting card and banner makers, photoshop elements, etc. Why should they pay a designer to come up with business cards, logos, brochures, signs etc. when they can do it themselves? Need a bulldog on your business card? No need to contact someone to draw one up... just google it, copy and paste, done. The secretary can do it. Now they can take their Publisher file to the sign shop and get their logo on the side of their van and they did not have to pay someone to design it for them. Pesky artists.
Wait forget the sign shop.. let me go to the office supply store to pick up some some paper, pens and my magnetics for my van right after I get groceries.
Now let's say they want to go a step further and have an "artist" come up with a logo. They can go to a website with pre-designed logos. All they have to add is their name, pay $30 and presto. Custom logo. I use the word custom loosely. Or maybe they don't want a canned logo. There are websites where they can post a request and get a dozen logos from a dozen different designers and they get to pick the right one. That is convenient, except to the other 11 "designers" who won't get paid for their work. Or what about competing against someone who does a logo for $50 since they are working from Nepal and $50 is a ransom. With the internet, suddenly you are competing with the world.
No need to pay a photographer for my background image. I can copy it from a google search or pay a few bucks. Done.
Heck you can even order your banners and get them next day from just about anywhere. Why bother going down the street and support your local shop? I can design it online, see what it will look like and have it in my hands the next day
Even the equipment mfr's are making it easy to start. "Pay 1 price for a sign shop in a box, everything you need to start your own vinyl/graphics printing business". As if success is guaranteed. You've got the equipment, so customers will coming knocking down your doors
It is all about convenience. Every bit of our lives has become this way. Everything is easily accessible and nearly instantaneous. Technology is being pushed down our throat. You don't have to work hard in many instances. Very little effort is required. There is a lot of good from technology and I am not complaining about all of it, but understand why it is happening
I still believe we need a FAQ section that we can redirect all new members to when they ask questions
Why not have a dozen or so of the most asked questions with concise friendly "canned" answers
It would be so much easier to say for instance.... "check the following link" when answering a question and being done with it. No more replies, close the thread or leave it alone. We could have a canned response as to why the signs101 community are being vague. I don't see anything wrong with suggesting that an answer to a very complex question require a membership. Or anything that is sensitive like pricing, business practices, etc. We can still have the "101" feel to it but protect some other info.
Like it or not, new people are getting into the sign business just like everything else. The economy is making people look at every possible money making opportunity more than ever. Being rude will not change their minds, but an honest friendly FAQ section saying the same thing will at least make them ponder it for a moment.
We are not going to change anyone's minds by being rude. They will just go elsewhere and that is not good for this site.
Vital Designs
Vital Designs
Flame
New Member
I believe this is from the underlying truth that many really don't want newcomers to this business, as it's the newcomers and lower prices that are hurting the pocketbooks of more established businesses with more overhead.
A guess...
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Head…….
This place has a very good name and you’re not liking what you currently see is not anyone’s problem but your own. You can choose to participate and take whatever you want. You, as demonstrated here, are free to post your hostility, but trying to rename a place based on your views is just ridiculous.
Thank goodness you aren’t a new person stumbling in here or you would go away and we’d miss a very important piece of the 101 puzzle. Evidently, you don’t know the difference between criticism and bastard posts.
When going through life, it’s a lot easier if everyone constantly points you in the right direction and you never have to think on your own. This develops a crutch and the person always asking the questions continues to ask dumb questions because they never learn to fend for themselves. I for one, will never explain totally how to do something to someone not showing any intent of learning and just wants a ‘Quick Fix’. No, those are the worst kind of people and do this place no good. If one wants to learn…. and takes the good with the bad, the ribbing and the long haul learning process, they are probably willing to spend some time and money to put into their effort to learn a great trade. They aren’t always crying how mean the world is and how come everyone is so ASSHOLEOMIC.
Now, if you were actually serious about leaving knowing all the stuff you said would make you leave…. Why is the green light still on by your name ??
Something else I noticed about your post….. where did anyone ask about the first time they made a design or wrote our name for the first time. Now you’re imagining questions and answering things that aren’t even there. You needa
.
This place has a very good name and you’re not liking what you currently see is not anyone’s problem but your own. You can choose to participate and take whatever you want. You, as demonstrated here, are free to post your hostility, but trying to rename a place based on your views is just ridiculous.
Thank goodness you aren’t a new person stumbling in here or you would go away and we’d miss a very important piece of the 101 puzzle. Evidently, you don’t know the difference between criticism and bastard posts.
When going through life, it’s a lot easier if everyone constantly points you in the right direction and you never have to think on your own. This develops a crutch and the person always asking the questions continues to ask dumb questions because they never learn to fend for themselves. I for one, will never explain totally how to do something to someone not showing any intent of learning and just wants a ‘Quick Fix’. No, those are the worst kind of people and do this place no good. If one wants to learn…. and takes the good with the bad, the ribbing and the long haul learning process, they are probably willing to spend some time and money to put into their effort to learn a great trade. They aren’t always crying how mean the world is and how come everyone is so ASSHOLEOMIC.
Now, if you were actually serious about leaving knowing all the stuff you said would make you leave…. Why is the green light still on by your name ??
Something else I noticed about your post….. where did anyone ask about the first time they made a design or wrote our name for the first time. Now you’re imagining questions and answering things that aren’t even there. You needa
.
jbennett
New Member
Wouldnt dream of flaming u. I agree with much of what you are saying. There is just something about when people mention they are wanting in the business because someone is wanting more for something than they think it should cost. I think anyone on here that is successful has probably spent more in equipment than they wish they had to also. The only thing that ever bothers me is when I see someone new lack the humility that I had when I started (and I still have at times). Because sign shop X rubbed me the wrong way is not a good reason for getting into the sign biz and soliciting help here. Because I have the desire to create and am willing to learn IS! I am not mentioning any specific person but generally some people make me feel like they are saying "I think you are overpaid for what you do and there isn't much involved in doing it and materials are cheap" . I have had two or three customers approach me that way and ask me to show them how to make it all work! It amazes me!!!!! Some think that everything we do comes off of some magic disk!!
jbennett
When the sign trade becomes less about an idea or aspiration every newbies attitude changes. At the point where it's your money tied up in equipment and your family relying on your sign business to keep a roof over their heads and food on the table then it gets VERY serious.
I've been in this industry for over twenty years and I've seen it time and time again. Newbie gets in a strop because the established players won't give over all the Golden knowledge for free and on demand.
Once said newbie gets a bit of sign work under their belt THEY become the established player.... the boot is on the other foot and the "ASSHOLEISM" becomes sound business sense.
If you want to buy a plotter or printer then no one is stopping you.... BUT if you expect someone supporting their family through the sign trade to just up and give you years worth of hard won and expensive experience just because you see it as your "right" then I'm afraid you don't understand the difference between a hobby and a lively hood.
If you don't like it you can always go "old school".... turn OFF your PC and get in your workshop and figure out how to do the things you need to do yourself. It's what lots of people have done before you.
I've been in this industry for over twenty years and I've seen it time and time again. Newbie gets in a strop because the established players won't give over all the Golden knowledge for free and on demand.
Once said newbie gets a bit of sign work under their belt THEY become the established player.... the boot is on the other foot and the "ASSHOLEISM" becomes sound business sense.
If you want to buy a plotter or printer then no one is stopping you.... BUT if you expect someone supporting their family through the sign trade to just up and give you years worth of hard won and expensive experience just because you see it as your "right" then I'm afraid you don't understand the difference between a hobby and a lively hood.
If you don't like it you can always go "old school".... turn OFF your PC and get in your workshop and figure out how to do the things you need to do yourself. It's what lots of people have done before you.