customer wants .pdf what would you do?

[Tim Aucoin]

I keep it very simple here in my shop where we have artwork on file for 500+ customers. If a customer requests their artwork, I gladly put it on a DVD in all formats I have on file and give it to them... it is their artwork and they have either paid me for it or provided it to me originally.

If we do a layout, it gets charged out at $90 per hour with a minimum 30 minutes charged. We don't actually do any creative in-house, as 90% of our clients provide print ready PDF files. When we do get requests to design a logo or corporate identity package, we charge a $250 base fee to start. I then source out the creative to one of a handful of designers I use and whatever they charge me gets marked up 4X and charged to the customer. Once they pay, they own the artwork and immediately get a copy on DVD.

We try not to burn any bridges, and in the few times over the last 20 years when customer has requested their artwork to go to another printer, 90% of them have eventually come back.

 

[ucmj22]

I keep it very simple here in my shop where we have artwork on file for 500+ customers. If a customer requests their artwork, I gladly put it on a DVD in all formats I have on file and give it to them... it is their artwork and they have either paid me for it or provided it to me originally.

If we do a layout, it gets charged out at $90 per hour with a minimum 30 minutes charged. We don't actually do any creative in-house, as 90% of our clients provide print ready PDF files. When we do get requests to design a logo or corporate identity package, we charge a $250 base fee to start. I then source out the creative to one of a handful of designers I use and whatever they charge me gets marked up 4X and charged to the customer. Once they pay, they own the artwork and immediately get a copy on DVD.

We try not to burn any bridges, and in the few times over the last 20 years when customer has requested their artwork to go to another printer, 90% of them have eventually come back.

It sounds like you have the price of the design built in to the cost wich works out, Thats what we do anyway to avoid the confusion. I also like the idea of calling it a "set-up" fee instead of a "design fee"

 

[binki]

you should have some type of contract that states what is theirs and what is not. we get that from time to time and we clearly indicate the customer does not get files or prints other than the product they are purchasing.

 

[westpointsigns]

Mark if you buy a car does that give you the rights to manufaturering more cars t sell? You bought the car so you own the rights to make copies of it, that is the way your thing comes across to me! Or better yet if you buy a painting you can make copies of it to sell or give you your freinds?

You can if you commissioned either the manufacturing of the car from the ground up, or the artist to paint the picture. It is then your design, and no longer the person who created it.

All designer rights are given up when the design or art is complete and money changes hands. Unless under a contract guaranteeing the designer keeps all rights to it and the purchaser has limited rights with what they can do with it.

 

[ucmj22]

You can if you commissioned either the manufacturing of the car from the ground up, or the artist to paint the picture. It is then your design, and no longer the person who created it.

All designer rights are given up when the design or art is complete and money changes hands. Unless under a contract guaranteeing the designer keeps all rights to it and the purchaser has limited rights with what they can do with it.

True. However, My whole argument is that a labor charge is not a commission fee for artwork. If I commission a painter for work, I guarantee hes not just going to charge me an hourly rate. As stated before the artwork has more value than simply time invested.

 

[Signvertise]

I agree with those posters that say the problems can be avoided if you have a consistent policy and who owns what is clearly explained (in writing) in advance to your clients. I, like T3 prefer to keep it simple. We charge a fair price for design time (more than our competitors in most cases) and tell our clients up front that the designs are theirs to do what they want with them.

Think about it this way - If you could get paid to design all of your competitors' graphics, wouldn't you hire as many designers as you need to keep up with the demand and cash the checks happily?

 

[mark galoob]

Mark if you buy a car does that give you the rights to manufaturering more cars t sell? You bought the car so you own the rights to make copies of it, that is the way your thing comes across to me! Or better yet if you buy a painting you can make copies of it to sell or give you your freinds?


obviously you did not read the post i was responding to. this was not my idea or thought, i was trying to make a point about the other post. his post didnt make any sense to me and i was trying to put it in context with what the ORIGANAL POST was...

personally, i hope you guys that double charge come set up shop near me...you will run yourself right out of business handling it like that...
remember that this is a sign that we are talking about, not an original painting or an origanal logo...this is simple layout folks not a rembrant

but i am curious...by this standard, if i commission you to design a logo for me, then i guess im just paying you to design it, i dont actually get the files unless i pay you another fee... ???

mark galoob

 

[ucmj22]

Mark if you buy a car does that give you the rights to manufaturering more cars t sell? You bought the car so you own the rights to make copies of it, that is the way your thing comes across to me! Or better yet if you buy a painting you can make copies of it to sell or give you your freinds?


obviously you did not read the post i was responding to. this was not my idea or thought, i was trying to make a point about the other post. his post didnt make any sense to me and i was trying to put it in context with what the ORIGANAL POST was...

personally, i hope you guys that double charge come set up shop near me...you will run yourself right out of business handling it like that...
remember that this is a sign that we are talking about, not an original painting or an origanal logo...this is simple layout folks not a rembrant

but i am curious...by this standard, if i commission you to design a logo for me, then i guess im just paying you to design it, i dont actually get the files unless i pay you another fee... ???

mark galoob

correct. If you want me to design sonething for one time use, it is one price. If you would like to take my design and use it it other aspects to proffit from it is another price.

 

[LoGl]

I agree with what a lot of you have said. Even before I posted this, I sent the customer the file they requested. It most certainly is not worth burning the bridge. I have faith that I will continue to do business with them, however, I know that they have a previous relationship with another sign person, and for whatever reason, chose to do a significant project with me, but the other half of the project with the other guy. I have a designer on staff with me, and from a graphic designer standpoint, as was stated by ForgeInc., he too believed that the artwork was paid for and belonged to them. I do have policies in place about art charges and the like, but also struggle with what the correct wording should be. It doesn't happen often, but something like this will come up and make us question things. I usually (but not always) keep design in a line item because there is a lot of value in what we do with design. It defines our work, and it is not an afterthought to us. Clients have respected our fee structure. But there are times when things are not formally done....you are on a roll with a client....and then they throw a ringer in and ask for the file. It has all been said on this thread. There are a few ways of looking at it, and it just comes down to being up front with the customer and having a policy in place. I like it simple too. Sometimes it just doesn't feel that way is all.

 

[signswi]

You can if you commissioned either the manufacturing of the car from the ground up, or the artist to paint the picture. It is then your design, and no longer the person who created it.

All designer rights are given up when the design or art is complete and money changes hands. Unless under a contract guaranteeing the designer keeps all rights to it and the purchaser has limited rights with what they can do with it.

Legally you have this completely backwards. The designer automatically has intellectual property rights on anything created and that ownership right must be transferred in writing to a third party (the client) or the designer still has the rights. Work-for-hire comes into play as well but in typical scenarios that just means the employer ends up as the rights holder instead of the designer, not that the client ends up with it.

If you want your client to become the legal rights holder you need to have that in the written contract.

If anyone is looking for some good language to build off of, the AIGA Standard Form of Agreement for Design Services is worth looking over. http://www.aiga.org/standard-agreement/

 

[genericname]

Work-for-hire comes into play as well but in typical scenarios that just means the employer ends up as the rights holder instead of the designer, not that the client ends up with it.

Even then, the designer still retains what's called "creator's rights". While they may not have legal ownership over the intellectual property, they are legally accepted as its creator, and there are no limitations placed on the designer regarding use in the realm of self-promotion (i.e. portfolio).

Copyright laws are firmly in the designer's court, and as yourself and others have pointed out (which I'm doing just to hammer the point home for some), the client never owns both the IP, and the right to use the IP, unless the designer explicitly transfers ownership of the creation over to the client.

And then, they still have creator's rights. Heh.

 

[RTGolden1]

They paid for sign design, not "logo" design, so I would not give up anything until they paid for a logo. Needless to say, that person never got back to me when I explained the reasoning behind it. I guess in this case, it is more about the fact that they did again pay for design, and so they own rights to the "design".

They paid you for "design time" not a "design". I charge to design car wraps from scratch, I get that money up front and make sure I tell the customer that the design charge is non-refundable. Customer only gets low-res .jpg proofs, with a legal notice at bottom that all artwork and designs are the property of our company. If customer wants to purchase production quality artwork, those costs are explained, in writing, on the original quote, which the customer must sign and date.
Seems extreme, but after seeing a job I designed adorning a vehicle I didn't wrap.... well, burn me once.... never again.

 

[petepaz]

when we charge extra we call it a prep/set up charge (that doesn't pertain to artwork design as far as the invoice says) i would say if you have it on their invoice that you charged them for design or artwork as a separate charge i think maybe they have a legal right to it. (i am not a lawyer so don't know the exact legality of it ) i have a customer now that he sends me vectored logos and i put them in the templates that i created per his cad dwgs and lately we have had some issues with payments dragging out 90-120 days so we went to credit hold till it was paid up to date. we are since cleared up but now he is asking questions about getting his artwork files on disc....really? i told him all the art work i have he supplied me when the jobs started so he should have it all other wise there would be a charge for the template files

 

[phototec]

You really know how to get people fired up! I understand the position of most of the respondents to this thread, and respect their right to retain control of the artwork that they create unless a license fee is paid to use it elsewhere... I don't sweat it - if a client asks for the artwork, I ask them what format and give it to them. If they really want to go to another graphics provider, then we really didn't do our job, which is to ensure that the last thing they want to do is ever leave us! I want our clients to prefer to leave their spouse than Signs By Tomorrow - Richmond!

Yep, when I charge a DESIGN FEE, that's exactly what the customer purchased, a created product, now that product comes in a particular from, it could be a AI or PSD file, either way, the customer now owns what I created and they paid for. So, when they request a copy of the creation, you give it to them, what they do with it is NOT your business.

There are many sources on the Internet that design Logos, they have a set price, once you pay them for the logo design, it's yours, you can go to you local printer and have them use it on business cards, or take it to Joe Blow sign company and have Joe wrap your van using the logo, so whats' the difference?

No extra fees are charged!

 

[Techman]

what does your biz plan say?
What? u have no bizz plan. Then this problem in this post will continue to re appear. Your plan has to be defined and implemented before you let your work get out.

Put your policies in your bizz plan and on your paper work and live by them.

 

[phototec]

Put your policies in your bizz plan and on your paper work and live by them.

+1

 

[phototec]

It might be different in the sign industry with different expectations, but I've been a designer for nearly 20 years and whenever I have been paid for a design and someone asks for the artwork files I give em to em. I can see ya'alls point though, as you make most of your money from producing signs.

But consider taking the sign/end product completely out of the equation. If you are designing something, doesn't matter if it's a logo or not, if your customer pays you for it then they should get the files to do with as they please. If they hired you for the design and were happy with it, they will come back to you and have you design (or print) more stuff for them. I know that 100% of my customers would be pissed and not do work with me again if I refused to hand over files when asked.

QUOTE]

+1

 

[Farmboy]

As stated, this needs to be explained to the customer from the get go. I had someone bring in a shirt with a trademarked design and wanted it copied. I said no that the design belonged to someone else. They went on to tell me that they bought the shirt and therefore the rights to the design. I just said no and didn't even try to explain, as his reasoning was sound...to him anyway.

 

[Smacka]

We have made this a non-issue. Customers own the product, we own the intellectual property rights. Similar to Getty images, your use of the product is limited to purpose for which it was created/sold. Unless the customer specifically purchases the creative rights, realistically THEY ARE BUYING MY TIME, which in itself is a product to be bought or sold. The result of that time is irrelevant. Others may disagree with this philosophy but ask yourselves this...did you ask your customer for their permission or pay them a fee for displaying the artwork that THEY now own on your literature, website, etc.? No? That's because they bought a specific product, not the creativity it took to achieve it. Explained properly to the client ends any confusion. Works well for me.

 

[James Burke]

Put it on a 5-1/4" floppy disk and tell 'em that's all your computer can do.


JB