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Jester1167

Premium Subscriber
This pricing happens because a business man buys or starts a sign shop. There is no value placed on the skill required to make a great advertisement. They just hire a few people for low wages, advertise for their own business and push the widgets out as fast as they can. It's all about #'s.

You can sell widgets or you can sell a service. Two totally different business models and they both work. I just wish all the people that want widgets would go to the widget maker and leave me alone.
 

luggnut

New Member
T
his pricing happens because a business man buys or starts a sign shop. There is no value placed on the skill required to make a great advertisement. They just hire a few people for low wages, advertise for their own business and push the widgets out as fast as they can. It's all about #'s.

You can sell widgets or you can sell a service. Two totally different business models and they both work. I just wish all the people that want widgets would go to the widget maker and leave me alone.

sometimes its because the sign maker is not enough of a business man to understand what it takes to really turn a profit.
 

Jester1167

Premium Subscriber
I agree, but in the long run you have to have large quantities and specialize to survive on low prices.

How does that old saying go.

Quality, Service, Price: Pick 2
 

Cadmn

New Member
went to a restruant the other day & here sits a truck with three mags on it advertising 18x24 set for $45 complete this is something you see all the time here around the DFW metroplex. Basivally I have quit magnets because it ain't worth it.
 

sigmnaker

New Member
Back in 1975 till mid 80s ..$ 200 was a fair to low price for a pair of magnetics or to letter the doors It was a good starting point $600 was not unheard of at all

Along came Gerber 4 then 4b also about that time everybody else starting in with cutters
10 yrs later print hit the pavement 3M no longer had a hold on it

What I don't understand is mechanics got air tools ... prices didn't change ..they just got done faster

Sign making dropped like a rock in water and you can buy cheaper retail then wholesale

Barrier to entry has continually gone down since those days. Before computers the sign business took a lot of skill and artistic talent. It was very difficult to master brush lettering. When the computer came along, it became much easier to get into the business but there was still significant barrier. Equipment was very expensive. Single fonts went for hundreds. I paid $900 for a 400 dpi B&W scanner. Now equipment is dirt cheap and sites such as this one unload years of knowledge to newbies at lightspeed. Where do you expect prices to go when the market is flooded with new people doing it?
 

Keith Rae

New Member
Why are we trying to work for $15.00 an hour. The union guy down the road makes more, has benefits, has a pension fund,and gets paid for paid holidays! HIS INVESTMENT? A hardhat work boots and his lunchbox. O-ya his work boots and hardhat are supplied by the company.
 

OldPaint

New Member
Back in 1975 till mid 80s ..$ 200 was a fair to low price for a pair of magnetics or to letter the doors It was a good starting point $600 was not unheard of at all

Along came Gerber 4 then 4b also about that time everybody else starting in with cutters
10 yrs later print hit the pavement 3M no longer had a hold on it

What I don't understand is mechanics got air tools ... prices didn't change ..they just got done faster

Sign making dropped like a rock in water and you can buy cheaper retail then wholesale
THIS IS SO TRUE!!!!!!!!!!!!
1986, i hada lady call me wanted her window of her shop lettered. this was BRUSH/PAINT ONLY days.
so i drive across town, park and walk in to see what she wanted done. she wanted the NAME of her sewing shop on the window(4 ft tall x 5 ft wide plate) without hesitating i said $100! she aked if could
do a little pic of a needle and spool of thread. no problem.
go out to car park it right in front, open my trunk, washed the window, got my grease pencil, sketch out a script, draw a spool of thread........get out my paint, brushes and go to it. less then an hour goes by, and iam doin all i can to stretch it to an hour.......so i walk into the shop to get paid and shes all bent outa shape..........CAUSE I WAS DONE & CHARGED A $100 AN HOUR!!!!!!
then i asked her how long it woulda taken her to paint the window........no answer. got paid and left.
ive also HAND LETTERED 3 STOCK CARS IN AN 8 HOUR DAY @ $200 EACH...........all of the money WAS PROFIT!!!!!!
thats when we made money at this.....................
 

Fred Weiss

Merchant Member
Why are we trying to work for $15.00 an hour. The union guy down the road makes more, has benefits, has a pension fund,and gets paid for paid holidays! HIS INVESTMENT? A hardhat work boots and his lunchbox. O-ya his work boots and hardhat are supplied by the company.

Because it has an entry level that is largely unregulated and is treated as a business opportunity. Structural and electrical sign contracting is treated much more like builders, plumbers, electricians, and mechanics are treated. Most of those professions have active apprentice/journeyman/master programs in place with most jurisdictions providing support by law.

Entry level sign making however is treated more like an extension of desktop publishing or commercial printing. Once Gerber and others established that a commercially viable market existed for plotters, printers and vinyl, the flood gates swung open and technology found a huge market among opportunity seekers and do-it-yourselfers as well as many established sign companies.

That was good for quite a while because the cost of the technology was kept high and the business opportunity aspects were held in check. I think one of the major reasons that prices and perceptions changed was the advent of the retail located sign store followed quickly by franchises such as FastSigns and Sign-A-Rama. They demonstrated that the easier, everyday stuff could be highly profitable and as much or more a business than a craft.

That resulted in an ever increasing population of new sign businesses ... each seeing ever cheaper technology being made available. But more importantly is the acquired productivity of the technology. Today even a total newbie with a $300 computer, CorelDraw and a $300 plotter working from home can produce an exponentially greater amount of work than a master sign painter could produce in 1980. His barrier to entry into the business is less than $1000.00! And then you will hear complaints about the cost of equipment and materials.

I started full time with a Gerber Signmaker III in 1983 @ $10K and bought two more before the end of 1984 out of profits. Fonts were $285 each and by the time PCs and electronic type became available, I had purchased more than 200 fonts @ $285 each. By 1986, I had purchased more than $250K in equipment, fonts and accessories as reinvestment of profits.

Regrets? None. I made a good living and created jobs for others. Today's problems at the cut and print end of the business are purely the predictable result of too much technology and productivity at too low a price chasing too few a number of customers.
 

DTFuqua

New Member
great post Luggnut. why anyone would be self employed to earn 'wages' is beyond me. there is a huge difference between creating a profitable business and buying yourself a low paying job.
Well it might depend a lot on the situation. Like a feller that has a wife in failing health and he is her 24 hour care taker. That would leave him little to no time for marketing and just barely any time to make the products. Thats my situation and I'll take what I can get as long as I'm at least making a decent wage for the time I spend working on the products.:wavingflag:
 
yeah yeah you've shared your story before and i am sorry for anyone who is struggling...life is a b!tch..we all have issues you are not the only one.

but to me this is no excuse to devalue an industry. you do multiple things to make ends meet and in my opinion you would be much better off to charge industry rates and make a decent profit than to give away your services, why leave money on the table?

i don't know who said it but dt you get what you settle for.

there are many ppl who make great profits in this industry...there are many more who have hurt and are continuing to hurt their markets by operating under flat out stupid flawed business practices. there is no reason to be self employed working for what you would make an hour working for someone else...why is this so difficult to understand?

you can either sell products for the price that they are worth and make a decent living and a PROFIT or you can give away your services and stay busy as can be chasing your tail for peanuts...it makes no sense to me.
 

Flame

New Member
You guys can bash me for this all you want, but I sell my 12 x 24 mags for $39.95 all day long. That is my biggest "loss leader" . I can attribute at least 5 of my really good repeat customers to this. I know that all of my prices are competitive but not cheap. I do work out of my home but I do not use this as a basis to be "cheaper" than anyone else.

Looking back through my past invoices, I can only account for TWO customers who ONLY bought the mags. (You cant win em all. )

So if takes the $39.95 to draw them in then so be it. I do not feel like I am "losing" money on these. I am certainly not making a killing off of them but for what it brings me in repeat business it is so worth it.

On another note, around here you couldnt get more than $59.95 for them anyway. And that is stretching it.



Not everyone is worth $130 for a pair of magnets...

just sayin.... you kinda made yourself the low price leader/ el cheapo shop right there. Which equals, lack of respect.
 

JimJenson

New Member
um if it takes an hour and you charge $40, you are LOSING OUT

At the same time, 20% of something is far better than 0% of nothing.

It would more depend on what you are turning away to make 40 bucks. If you had 2 hours which would otherwise be idle time, it may be in your best interest to take on a 40 dollar project.
 

Dice

New Member
People selling mags for $39 each is the reason this industry is going down the tubes. We Sell them for $65, + $75 if you want a custom design with 1 revision.
 

JimJenson

New Member
That is also known as stepping over a dollar to grab a nickel.

Not what I said.
You are assuming that a business owner is dumb enough to turn away thousands to make time for 40 bucks.

For clarity, I qualified my opinion with "It would more depend on what you are turning away to make 40 bucks. If you had 2 hours which would otherwise be idle time, it may be in your best interest to take on a 40 dollar project".

What that means is that if its 40$ or nothing, I would take the 40 bucks.
 

BANNERS2GO

New Member
We tell our customers that we print our magnets 1 a week on Fridays. It has saved us a lot of setup time from doing 1,2 or 3 sets a time. If you could do 7-10 sets per hour (if you are printing and laminating not cut weed ect.)@ $39 per set then it is worth it if you are a small to average size print shop. We use to avertise our magnets for $45 per set years back. When we were doing 20 sets per week it was worth it but now since the loss leader competitors are doing it for less we stopped advertising it because we were only doing maybe 10 sets per week - not worth it. Now we wont do them for anything less than $50 per set unless it is a large order.

We are not in business to pay ourselfs hourly. We are in business to get to the point where the money still comes in whether you are there or not. . Amen
 

Techman

New Member
around here you couldnt get more than $59.95 for them anyway. And that is stretching it.

I've listened to this so many times and read it sp many times and found it mistaken.. Every one says that. In every business they say that. But along comes someone else and that single person is charging lots more than what every one else is saying is not possible.

How does this one charge more and get it when every one else says its not possible?

Whenever we find ourselves repeating this victim mentality attitude we must get out and find out how to make ourselves smarter. Until we do get out and develop ourselves we will always just be a technician trying to make a living.
 
S

scarface

Guest
I've listened to this so many times and read it sp many times and found it mistaken.. Every one says that. In every business they say that. But along comes someone else and that single person is charging lots more than what every one else is saying is not possible.

How does this one charge more and get it when every one else says its not possible?

Whenever we find ourselves repeating this victim mentality attitude we must get out and find out how to make ourselves smarter. Until we do get out and develop ourselves we will always just be a technician trying to make a living.

I've been getting $65 for a simple 1 color pair for years now. I always get "wow, thats nice. when can you do them"
 

luggnut

New Member
I've listened to this so many times and read it sp many times and found it mistaken.. Every one says that. In every business they say that. But along comes someone else and that single person is charging lots more than what every one else is saying is not possible.

How does this one charge more and get it when every one else says its not possible?

Whenever we find ourselves repeating this victim mentality attitude we must get out and find out how to make ourselves smarter. Until we do get out and develop ourselves we will always just be a technician trying to make a living.

thats true... i've found people that i think are inferior designers/signmakers than i selling for more than i get... they are superior businessmen/marketers/salesman... the prices can be gotten, most of the time people think the only thing they can compete on is price... not true if you have the biz skills, you can be above average designer IMHO
 
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