Bly
New Member
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Does your artwork fee mean you hand ownership to customer?
- Thread starter Custom_Grafx
- Start date
+1 hahahhaaaa
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
We don't either if their main goal is the shirt (or hat or whatever). There are a couple of Mexican restuarants that wanted me to do shirts, one for this past Cinco (that was done with sublimation) and one for the their main business attire (embroidery). Neither one kept the files, because they wanted shirts.
For me though, it's been pretty cut and dry with embroidery files as I'm either straight up digitizing (in which they keep the files) or I'm doing the finished product. Very rarely do the want me to do both, but it has happened.
National and International IP law would disagree good sir.
Pointless topic, depends on your contract, every contract is different. Most of you probably still own the art even if you think you don't, as you never signed it over.
inthesignbiz
New Member
More than once, I have had customers order magnetic or other signs.
We jazz up the name and add some art to make them look nice.
Then, the newspaper or phone book calls and asks you to send them thier logo.
Creating a logo was not my intent when I made the design but the customer runs with it.
I call them "accidental logos"
I find it difficult to call them to say that they owe me more money since they are using it for other purposes since that was not discussed in the beginning.
I really don't have the time to spend chasing down customers and extra money.
I chaulk it up to good customer service rather than tick them off.
However, I don't make a mad dash to send the files either.
We have had incidents in which we created some magnetic signs that like stated above turned into an accidental logo. The customer comes back and asks for the same design on a 4X8. I give them a price and they leave to think about it. Drive by thier building a week later and there is my design on a 4X8 that we didn't make.
Now what?
Find out what shop made it and go after them?
Go after the customer?
That takes time that I don't have to chase them down.
For sure, I'll take them both off of my Christmas card list.
We jazz up the name and add some art to make them look nice.
Then, the newspaper or phone book calls and asks you to send them thier logo.
Creating a logo was not my intent when I made the design but the customer runs with it.
I call them "accidental logos"
I find it difficult to call them to say that they owe me more money since they are using it for other purposes since that was not discussed in the beginning.
I really don't have the time to spend chasing down customers and extra money.
I chaulk it up to good customer service rather than tick them off.
However, I don't make a mad dash to send the files either.
We have had incidents in which we created some magnetic signs that like stated above turned into an accidental logo. The customer comes back and asks for the same design on a 4X8. I give them a price and they leave to think about it. Drive by thier building a week later and there is my design on a 4X8 that we didn't make.
Now what?
Find out what shop made it and go after them?
Go after the customer?
That takes time that I don't have to chase them down.
For sure, I'll take them both off of my Christmas card list.
weaselboogie
New Member
They, as in THE ARTIST, usually retains ownership. The artist grants printing rights, 1st, 2nd, full printing rights.
I drew illustrations for a book. I gave them 1st time printing rights. If they'd wish to reprint, they'll need to come back to me to request 2nd time printing rights.
...AND I kept my originals.
Pretty much my shop's stance as well, in my freelance design work I *would* have my lawyer send a letter as all I'm selling is design. Every situation (business) is different.
On a side note that crap makes me insane, I know Dan A. always has good things to say about it (GET YOUR BRANDING IN ORDER FIRST).
So many dumb business owners (in regards to branding/identity/marketing) it's no wonder the failure rate is 90% on new ventures.
On a side note that crap makes me insane, I know Dan A. always has good things to say about it (GET YOUR BRANDING IN ORDER FIRST).
So many dumb business owners (in regards to branding/identity/marketing) it's no wonder the failure rate is 90% on new ventures.
Forgot to mention, if you have language that retains the IP in your contracts then you're in the position of being able to be nice and give away the IP as a gift to clients, make them feel special. "We normally don't do this/charge for this, but since it's you here you go...". 
Joe Diaz
New Member
Depends on how you run your business I guess. If they hire us to design artwork then yes, the goal is pass on the ownership of the artwork. If they hire us to make a sign, then they aren't necessarily buying artwork. But at our shop we see signs/graphics and design work as being two different things, and we approach each service differently. In my opinion, If you don't, the client won't value your artwork or your time. In our experience you can spend hours a week emailing artwork around if you aren't careful. Time is money so we do things differently here.
In my opinion the design it'self is extremely valuable. It can be used as a sales tool over and over again... easily paying for itself in little time. It should costs the client much more than most sign shops sell if for. In fact many sign shops almost give it away just to get the sign work. How do you expect your clients to value custom design work, if you wont?
Because we see the value, we charge accordingly. Because our customers see the value, they continue to buy it from us.
Some of our clients, who want to purchase just a sign, may not want to invest in a custom made logo or design, so they don't have to, however we would own the artwork used to create that sign. If after the fact the customer realizes the value of the artwork, they have two options, continue to buy services and products through us, Or purchase the design.
Other clients initially realize the potential of a custom made design (or we sell them on the value of that custom artwork) These customers will often time purchase the logo or design first, even before we make them a sign. They then can use THEIR artwork however they wish.
If you spell this out to the client, our experience has been that it won't "pi$$ off" the client. They either realize the value of custom designed artwork and pay for it up front, or the choose to just buy the sign work. They have the option and they know those options from the get-go. If they didn't agree to our policy, they know where the door is before we do any type of work, but ever since we started doing business this way, we have never lost a job due to those policies.
HulkSmash
New Member
Joe,
If they pay you $X.XX dollars an hr for a sign design. What are they paying for?
How can you say sign design and logo design is different, when it comes to art work ownership
if someone buys a logo from you for $500.00 are you going to charge them to print it on a sign? It's the same principle. They paid you to design it, it's theirs.
If they pay you $X.XX dollars an hr for a sign design. What are they paying for?
How can you say sign design and logo design is different, when it comes to art work ownership
if someone buys a logo from you for $500.00 are you going to charge them to print it on a sign? It's the same principle. They paid you to design it, it's theirs.
HulkSmash
New Member
illustrations for books are much different. If i remember correctly dont you have to license that picture and every time its used you make a royalty?
Joe Diaz
New Member
Joe Diaz
New Member
boxerbay
New Member
http://www.sessions.edu/notes-on-design/legal-copyright-trademark/who-owns-the-copyright/
Kris says:
Hi,
I have a small company and I hired a freelance graphic designer to create logo, artwork and other items for my company. I paid her fully for the work she has done. There was no written contract. I have now hired a full time graphic designer and I have asked the freelance graphic designer to give me the original artwork so that I can have the in house graphic designer use it. She refused to turn over the original files (7 years worth of work for which she was paid very well). A few days later she called me and said she would turn over the files for a fee (substantial I might add). I told her that the logo’s belonged to my company and she was already paid for her work. Do I have any legal rights to obtain these from her?
Thanks,
Kris
Dear Kris,
Unfortunately, no. This is a misconception many hiring parties fall victim to—I paid for it, I own it. In the case of copyrightable work, this is not true. The creator of artwork, in this case, a logo, owns the copyright in it unless and until she transfers it in writing. What you paid for was the right to use the artwork as your logo, but not for the copyright. To obtain those rights, you have to have a document which makes it either work for hire or which transfers all right, title and interest in the work. The files belong to her because you did not have a written agreement that says otherwise. My advice is to negotiate a price for the digital files and a full transfer of rights and chalk it up to an expensive lesson learned.
Best,
Jean
Kris says:
Hi,
I have a small company and I hired a freelance graphic designer to create logo, artwork and other items for my company. I paid her fully for the work she has done. There was no written contract. I have now hired a full time graphic designer and I have asked the freelance graphic designer to give me the original artwork so that I can have the in house graphic designer use it. She refused to turn over the original files (7 years worth of work for which she was paid very well). A few days later she called me and said she would turn over the files for a fee (substantial I might add). I told her that the logo’s belonged to my company and she was already paid for her work. Do I have any legal rights to obtain these from her?
Thanks,
Kris
Dear Kris,
Unfortunately, no. This is a misconception many hiring parties fall victim to—I paid for it, I own it. In the case of copyrightable work, this is not true. The creator of artwork, in this case, a logo, owns the copyright in it unless and until she transfers it in writing. What you paid for was the right to use the artwork as your logo, but not for the copyright. To obtain those rights, you have to have a document which makes it either work for hire or which transfers all right, title and interest in the work. The files belong to her because you did not have a written agreement that says otherwise. My advice is to negotiate a price for the digital files and a full transfer of rights and chalk it up to an expensive lesson learned.
Best,
Jean
This is copyright 101 peeps.
Whomever creates it, owns it unless a written agreement specifies otherwise. Unless a business employs you REGULARLY (as in, you are an employee of a company, receiving regular paychecks) in which case the business likely owns it.
If you design something, and you want to use part of it for another customer you have every right to do so. If your client wants it exclusive to them only, then they pay a higher fee for an exclusive license. Otherwise, you generally charge a lower fee to license the work to them non exclusively. In the sign business, we do alot of logos and elements specific to each customer, which rarely would be used later (for other customers).
But occasionally you will develop elements which could be used. I for instance do alot of car illustrations which get re-used for many customers. If it's a vehicle that can be re-used often, it's less cost versus one that cannot be reused. As artists put it... Licensing is an artists retirement plan.
Copyright does more than protect a given work, it can protect ones 'style'. Say Matt Groening had created the simpsons under a work for hire agreement to fox... They could fire him, hire a bunch of young pups to draw the simpsons from now on, and worse... sue him if he made any future comics in a similar style (his style is very unique if you've caught his LIFE IN HELL comics and simpsons cartoons, etc...). He would then need to develop a whole new style of illustrating to avoid legal battles. Work for Hire agreements transfer all rights, including authorship, and makes the transferee the 'creator' of the work, FOREVER. An All rights transfer does not transfer authorship, and yet to be tested, theoretically dissolves after 35 years (i think). http://www.graphicartistsguild.org/resources/contract-monitor/contract-glossary/
A marketing friend of mine stated it well when he said "Licensing artwork is rarely an issue if it's discussed up front. It's always problematic after the fact, when there wasn't any sort of agreement."
A simple ©year company name, All Rights Reserved stamp on all art will suffice.
Pat Whatley
New Member
Why does this keep coming up? If somebody tried to hold something thought I'd paid for hostage it would be the last time I ever did business with them. TELL THEM THE DEAL UP FRONT. Two minutes of simply explaining the rules, a couple of simple lines on the work order they have to read and sign, and letting them know how much the artwork will cost BEFORE you create it will end all of this.
It keeps coming up for exactly that reason, many shops don't use any sort of contract before starting work, much less design work. It's a point of pain in the industry but a lot of people on here still can't figure out why it's necessary and smart business.
Techman
New Member
Most sign shops are not run like a business. They are a glorified job for some paint or computer technician. Nothing more. Most sign shop owners have very little training in their business skills. Yes they may be world class artisans. They spent years developing the skills. But they spent little time studying business.
The skills they do have are usually passed down by word of mouth or off a board like this with very little proof positive they actually work. Most are amateurs at running a real business because most do not have a complete comprehensive plan that will guide them.
They are just like pilot of old who flew their planes by the seat of the pants. They react to conditions as it comes instead of having a plan that guides them around hazards. Thus they crash and fail.
The answers given by most of those on this post point out this fact. They simply do not know their rights. They do not have the knowledge to pursue their rights. So they just give it up.
The skills they do have are usually passed down by word of mouth or off a board like this with very little proof positive they actually work. Most are amateurs at running a real business because most do not have a complete comprehensive plan that will guide them.
They are just like pilot of old who flew their planes by the seat of the pants. They react to conditions as it comes instead of having a plan that guides them around hazards. Thus they crash and fail.
The answers given by most of those on this post point out this fact. They simply do not know their rights. They do not have the knowledge to pursue their rights. So they just give it up.
boxerbay
New Member
I always charge the full rights fee so I give them the artwork on a CD if requested.
The only time I discount a design if it is part of a bigger deal or I want to capture a new client on a repeat order products like NCR Forms.
If you try to pull that "I own the rights" stuff on a client you've already lost the client and you just reacting to him leaving you.
Be smart and charge it up front.
The only time I discount a design if it is part of a bigger deal or I want to capture a new client on a repeat order products like NCR Forms.
If you try to pull that "I own the rights" stuff on a client you've already lost the client and you just reacting to him leaving you.
Be smart and charge it up front.