Flash on iPad's and iPhones?

[CES020]

Interesting point to me is that when the decision was made, Jobs said it was partially to do with the fact that flash was a battery hog and performance killer. He was called a liar by all the PC Fan boys and they all said it wasn't true. Then, you see those exact same complaints against it on other platforms. You see youtube videos showing flash crashing on androids, etc. Yet, you can hear the crickets chirping from the PC fanboys.

Then Computerworld (The people that wrote the article I linked to) said this :

"This should mean that iOS devices will get much of the advantages of Flash video support, without the processor degradation and battery life cost of the format in use on other devices."

So even people OUTSIDE of apple are saying that flash was a processor hog and it was draining the battery. Yet again, you can hear the crickets chirping from all the people that said Jobs was a liar.

Man up, admit he was telling the truth at the time.

And again, we hear the same old tired line about how Apple is such a joke when it come to running their business (implied), yet they are in the top 2 or 3 companies in the world for revenue.

If being stupid and making stupid business decisions, and being hard headed and abandoning things on principle instead of logic gets you to #1,2, or 3 largest companies in the USA, then I think I'll start making stupid business decisions.

I think if Apple had 98% of the marketshare, some people will still say they were a poorly run company with poor products.

 

[Sideshow]

The reason flash was "banned" from Apple has to do with its aquisition from Macromedia by Adobe. there was a pissing match, so Apple gave the perverbial finger salute to its functionality within Apple OS.

At least that was the scuttlebutt a few yrs ago.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Interesting point to me is that when the decision was made, Jobs said it was partially to do with the fact that flash was a battery hog and performance killer. He was called a liar by all the PC Fan boys and they all said it wasn't true. Then, you see those exact same complaints against it on other platforms. You see youtube videos showing flash crashing on androids, etc. Yet, you can hear the crickets chirping from the PC fanboys.

Here is the deal. This isn't a Apple vs PC thing, as much as Apple is trying to turn it into one.

The thing with flash is there are so many flash developers out there. Some good, some bad. Flash can be lighter than any app Apple has to offer or it can be bloated and cause problems regardless of what system it is on. Its the same way with html5 and when html5 really starts to take off, and if it becomes as widely used as flash, you will see the exact same complaints. It all depends on who is making it and how it is made.


The thing is, I would like to have the option to see everything the internet has to offer, and choose not to visit certain content for what ever reason, NOT have Apple tell me what content I can view. Perhaps this is why so many ipad/iphone users are constantly trying to figure out ways to view flash on their device. Jailbreak, flash streaming apps, etc...

So even people OUTSIDE of apple are saying that flash was a processor hog and it was draining the battery. Yet again, you can hear the crickets chirping from all the people that said Jobs was a liar.

Yeah no one really was claiming that flash couldn't sometimes be a resource hog, at least no one that knows what they are talking about was. But what Apples marketing strategy is trying to do is convince everyone that ALL flash content are resource hogs... or that comparable content made in something other than flash automatically makes it less resource heavy. That simply isn't true. They will do this by cherry picking a few examples or their own fan boys posting up youtube clips. But it's simply not the case.

Perhaps this same concept, what adobe is trying to do, can be done for any application. If my tablet isn't powerful enough to run something like let's say Corel Painter, so that it can remain slim and light, run cool, be reasonably priced... maybe then this same concept will allow me run programs like that on a tablet. Maybe apple well do the same with some of there more resource heavy apps. Maybe developers of flash or html5 can really push their content. Do things they wouldn't normally do when they normally have to worry so much about keeping their content light. There's a name for that....... I think it's called Cloud.

 

[Techman]

Originally Posted by CES020 View Post
Interesting point to me is that when the decision was made, Jobs said it was partially to do with the fact that flash was a battery hog and performance killer. He was called a liar by all the PC Fan boys and they all said it wasn't true. Then, you see those exact same complaints against it on other platforms. You see youtube videos showing flash crashing on androids, etc. Yet, you can hear the crickets chirping from the PC fanboys.

What pack of misinformation. Every one knows flash is a resource hog. Every one knows that flash is continually being updated. Every one knows how difficult it is to run any machine with those constant updates. What pc fanboy claimed he was a liar?

The android experience is well documented. The android experience actually shows that Jobs was right. Does it not? In fact, there are interviews where adobe admits there is some tweaking work to be done.

The facts are... Flash heavy and JAVA heavy code uses the CPU to the max and creates heat and uses up power. There is no denying it. Why would any one call Jobs a liar?

 

[iSign]

Interesting point to me is that when the decision was made, Jobs said it was partially to do with the fact that flash was a battery hog and performance killer. He was called a liar by all the PC Fan boys and they all said it wasn't true.

Then, you see those exact same complaints against it on other platforms. You see youtube videos showing flash crashing on androids, etc. Yet, you can hear the crickets chirping from the PC fanboys...
...Man up, admit he was telling the truth at the time...

...If being stupid and making stupid business decisions, and being hard headed and abandoning things on principle instead of logic gets you to #1,2, or 3 largest companies in the USA, then I think I'll start making stupid business decisions.

dude... Get a room... This apple fetish exhibitionism is awkward...


"pc fanboys"? Did you just invent that? There are no pc fanboys... The non apple fanboys that disagree with you aren't fans... That's the whole point... Use of all tools... fans of none!

 

[CES020]

What is a web site that is flash driven that I can't live without seeing on my phone with a 2" x 3" screen?

isign, I just like to see some consistency in people's words. Jobs said from the time of the announcement, part of the reasoning was because it was a resource hog and battery zapper. People on this very forum said he was full of crap and was just being an arrogant a**hole, more or less, trying to be a control freak.

Now we have everyone out there admitting it's a resource hog and yet, now it's okay when they say it.

It's not an apple fetish at all. How about saying the same thing to Joe. He posts on every single thread about this topic, yet you give him a free pass. So if it's Joe, he can say it all he wants, if I say it, then I have a fetish. I understand now.

 

[iSign]

Where is Joe a Mac fanboy?

Where are the quote/links to the specific individual's specific words that you are basing all these gross generalizations on? Don't you know ALL generalizations are 100% false in every way, every time?

 

[CES020]

Doug, show me where in this thread that I said Apple was the best ever.

I don't recall saying anything about apple or their quality or anything to that in this thread. How that makes me an apple fan boy is bizarre.

 

[Techman]

The reason joe gets a pass is because he posts facts. And he likely knows more about using flash than just about 98% of those on this board. So how can anyone who knows less question his statements.
All that plus he is usually right.

As he points out.. Specific examples of why something does not work are useless. There are a thousand to the tenth power of combination usages.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Doug, show me where in this thread that I said Apple was the best ever.

I don't recall saying anything about apple or their quality or anything to that in this thread. How that makes me an apple fan boy is bizarre.

There is a little bit of a "tinge" of you being a new apple fan boy in this thread:

I thought hooking it to my mac would fix any issues.

This was in the thread that dealt with your Wacom 4 whoas. That gives me the impression that you believe that your driver issues were more due to the Windows OS and that by merely hooking it up to your MAC you wouldn't have those issues anymore.

I'm just getting a little bit of that vib of the newly converted MAC fan and that you believed it was a better product as your issues would no longer be there by just hooking up your Wacom to your MAC.

Now it wasn't in this thread, but it was mentioned by you and it is one of the comments that would lend itself to that hypothesis. I'm sure if I went through the OS Lion Are you Digging it thread I would find some more, but I dunno.

 

[iSign]

Where were you playing the fanboy card?
When you posted some crap sorta like this:
"They called him a liar... Where are they now? Crickets??? BS... You crickets... man up and take back what you said about my religion, or my mommy...

Don't feel like finding actual quotes.. but show us the quotes getting you hot and bothered, and I'll go find more of you Mac fanboy quotes (iPad thread too, I think)

 

[Mainframe]

It is my understanding Job's issue with flash was actually from the osx side, I was surprised when I read an interview of him complaining about poor flash performance (compared to windows) in the Mac os. He said flash required much more horsepower to run in OSX & most often when OSX locked or crashed it had something to do with Flash. He seemed to hint he gave Adobe every chance to fix it but they didn't feel it was worth it, this is all in the ios early days.

I myself noticed Flash trouble but not to the extent Job's was ranting about, but here is the thing with the average user, I don't measure how much power every little thing I open or use takes, so I don't really know any better, If you are the guys writing the code for the computer you know what is what. I think Adobe, (along with half the rest of the world, Including me) never thought ios was going to be as big as it became, (I am a self admitted Mac freak, but I never had an ipod, iphone or ipad), But since Jobs was ticked at them for the OSX flash, he took them out of the plan for ios, not only from being mad but also because the way flash is implemented on the screen.

In flash you have a lot of mouse overs & sounds from the mouse cursor, things launch, spin boing & flip when the mouse runs over them, in ios, you have no mouse, they planned a different way to control (finger pinch, tap zoom etc) so they had to pick a system to write to & HTML5 made more sense, I think the media took the other rants & ran with them, I guess it also doesn't help they won't let flash in like android did but as long as new sites are going HTML5 and or both they won't have to, this latest offering from adobe is just some little band aid to let you watch some video, all this is my opinion and makes perfect sense to me LOL!

 

[CES020]

The reason joe gets a pass is because he posts facts. And he likely knows more about using flash than just about 98% of those on this board. So how can anyone who knows less question his statements.
All that plus he is usually right.

As he points out.. Specific examples of why something does not work are useless. There are a thousand to the tenth power of combination usages.

Now that is comical there! Thanks for the morning laugh! You know, because I know less about Flash then Joe does, then I guess we can say that Jobs and Apple know more about developing and running flash on computers than Joe does. So if that's the logic, then we should take Jobs at his words.

Interesting point of view. I don't need to dig up old posts, I lived through them. Jobs was torn apart by people on this forum for ignoring Flash and digging his heels in for ego, not for facts. Now, we see that it was fact based, rather than ego.

Wildwest, I am a new Mac user, I have openly said that. I'm also a PC user. I use both every day. How stating something from a PC magazine (Computerworld) makes me a fanboy is, again, laughable.

I guess we can only have one opinion on this forum when it comes to apple. Let me see if I can work with you guys.

Jobs is an idiot, apple is overpriced junk, people that buy it are stupid, it's an inferior operating system and flash should run on every device in the world.

There, now we're all in agreement.

I'm still waiting for that website that uses flash that I can't live without seeing on my 2" x 3" phone.

Flash works just fine on Mac and my PC's.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

Decaf anyone?

 

[Joe Diaz]

It is my understanding Job's issue with flash was actually from the osx side, I was surprised when I read an interview of him complaining about poor flash performance (compared to windows) in the Mac os. He said flash required much more horsepower to run in OSX & most often when OSX locked or crashed it had something to do with Flash. He seemed to hint he gave Adobe every chance to fix it but they didn't feel it was worth it, this is all in the ios early days.!

But why is it all on Adobe? Clearly this "problem" involves two parties. I would think it would be in Apple's best interest to do everything they can to make every aspect of the internet available to it's users. Other devices can view flash. Maybe the conflicts between Flash and OSX or iOS aren't totally adobe's fault.

Anyway, We know that adobe is doing everything they can to find some sort of loophole just so they can get on these Apple devices. The OP's link is a perfect example of that. So the thought that they are being stubborn is a little harder to believe, than apple being the stubborn ones. I personally think Apple's decision to not support flash has little to do with flash's stability or performance.

I myself noticed Flash trouble but not to the extent Job's was ranting about, but here is the thing with the average user, I don't measure how much power every little thing I open or use takes, so I don't really know any better,

I bet if you did, you would notice that flash content doesn't use much more system resources and sometimes it use less than any similar content built on something like html5.

In flash you have a lot of mouse overs & sounds from the mouse cursor, things launch, spin boing & flip when the mouse runs over them, in ios, you have no mouse, they planned a different way to control (finger pinch, tap zoom etc) so they had to pick a system to write to & HTML5 made more sense, I think the media took the other rants & ran with them, I guess it also doesn't help they won't let flash in like android did but as long as new sites are going HTML5 and or both they won't have to, this latest offering from adobe is just some little band aid to let you watch some video, all this is my opinion and makes perfect sense to me LOL!

Ahhh yes the mouse over argument. You see that is another silly argument.
I would guess more than 90% of the web utilizes rollovers in some form or another... not including flash. You can easily create rollovers in simple html.
AND Flash does actually support gestures. The issue is a good chunk of flash that is out there was developed before multitouch devices really caught on. I don't see this as a good reason to not include flash playback on a touch device. Flash has the potential to be really great on touch devices. That is why I shook my head in disbelief when I first heard the news that Apple didn't wan't flash to be apart of their devices.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Wildwest, I am a new Mac user, I have openly said that. I'm also a PC user. I use both every day. How stating something from a PC magazine (Computerworld) makes me a fanboy is, again, laughable.

That's not why I was getting the impression that you are a fan. I was actually using your own quote not you quoting a magazine. One someone uses phrasing such as "I thought hooking it to my mac would fix any issues."(in reference again to your Wacom 4 issues, not that you were saying that to any and all issues don't think I'm trying to take it out of context) that shows a slight bent or leaning toward one over the other


I'm also aware that you are a new MAC user(hence my using phrases like "new apple fan boy" and "newly converted MAC fan"), however, using both platforms doesn't mean that you aren't a fan of one over the other. In fact, using both puts you in a good position to know what works for you and what doesn't. Some people on these boards run both out of necessity then any true unbiased thought to any particular platform, so in of itself running both doesn't mean that you aren't a fan of one over the other. Right now, ironically, I'm typing this post on my iMAC.

I also wasn't one that said Jobs is an idiot and runs his business as such. However he has done it, it works. In fact, I would that for someone like myself looking at the culture that he has created, he did it in a very smart fashion. To me, it looks like he has fostered this religions mentality to his brand and that works. It's smart, I'm not going to say otherwise.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

device. Flash has the potential to be really great on touch devices.

There are a lot of well done touch screen apps/games that have been made with flash technology and being able to use with touch devices.

I even like it how Adobe has included a lot of different devices so you can do simulated tests to see what it looks like on the various ones and see how well or how bad your layout with regard to screen real estate that you are using.

This is the kind of thing that boggles me when people don't think that Flash will adapt. Part of the argument that flash is outdated is that it won't evolve or that the programmers won't evolve to become more efficient with flash.

Some programs didn't and they were left by the wayside, I'm sure some of the people on these boards can think of a couple, but I don't get the notion that it would be the case in this instance. But I have been wrong before and probably will be again. Time will tell.

 

[CES020]

I was actually using your own quote not you quoting a magazine. One someone uses phrasing such as "I thought hooking it to my mac would fix any issues."(in reference again to your Wacom 4 issues, not that you were saying that to any and all issues don't think I'm trying to take it out of context) that shows a slight bent or leaning toward one over the other

Well then, let me clarify that for you, since you have warped it into a fanboy type comment. I said "I thought hooking it up to my mac would fix any issues". I said that because I thought something had gotten corrupted on my PC that was making this tablet not work. If I had a Windows 7 PC beside me, I would have said "I plugged it into my Windows 7 machine and thought that would fix any issues".

A more accurate statement to avoid being called a fanboy would have been "I thought plugging it into ANOTHER computer would fix any issues", but yet, you read that as "I thought a Mac wouldn't have any problems". That's not what I said, that's how you read it. No where in my statement did I say that, you READ it into my comments. That's your issue, not mine.

That's exactly what I'm talking about.

I still think the whole thing is funny. You can't even mention the company name without being called out on something. That just cracks me up.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

A more accurate statement to avoid being called a fanboy would have been "I thought plugging it into ANOTHER computer would fix any issues", but yet, you read that as "I thought a Mac wouldn't have any problems". That's not what I said, that's how you read it. No where in my statement did I say that, you READ it into my comments. That's your issue, not mine.

You are right that is a little hypersensitivity as I do see quite a lot of the Apple fanboys say that thing work without any issue on the MAC and are just plug and play versus all the rhapsodies that you have to go thru with the PC.

You can't even mention the company name without being called out on something. That just cracks me up.

It happens on both sides of the fence. It shouldn't, but it does.

 

[Joe Diaz]

I don't need to dig up old posts, I lived through them. Jobs was torn apart by people on this forum for ignoring Flash and digging his heels in for ego, not for facts. Now, we see that it was fact based, rather than ego.

I think you are misunderstanding the argument against "Jobs" or Apple in this case. You bring up the word "Facts" Let me see if I can clarify a few facts.

Flash CAN be a resource hog. FACT it CAN but compared to what and on what device with what set of parameters?

ALL Flash content are recourse hogs. NOT FACT. Especially when compared to similar media rich content.

So it begs the question: If there were apps out there that were resource hogs and chewed up battery life, would that mean that NO apps should be available on the iPad or iPhone? The FACT is there are apps that are also resource hogs. and I'll say it one more time. Wouldn't it be nice if you could choose for yourself what content you can or can't see? That is the argument I (and others) have against "Jobs"

Wildwest, I am a new Mac user, I have openly said that. I'm also a PC user. I use both every day. How stating something from a PC magazine (Computerworld) makes me a fanboy is, again, laughable.

Here again you are misunderstanding the technology that Computerworld is talking about, and what it actually does.

"This should mean that iOS devices will get much of the advantages of Flash video support, without the processor degradation and battery life cost of the format in use on other devices."

This doesn't support the opinion that ALL flash content are resource intensive to the extent that it should be left off mobile devices. It simply means that it could potentially use less resources. Technically this concept or a similar one could be applied to many things on your device not only flash. Those process could also run much lighter. Besides he even says "advantages of Flash video support" I don't think he is knocking flash in that article.

I guess we can only have one opinion on this forum when it comes to apple. Let me see if I can work with you guys.

Jobs is an idiot, apple is overpriced junk, people that buy it are stupid, it's an inferior operating system and flash should run on every device in the world.

There, now we're all in agreement.

Where is this coming from.

I'm still waiting for that website that uses flash that I can't live without seeing on my 2" x 3" phone.

Maybe not you, but did you ever think there are others out there that do enjoy flash? Why do you think this is such a big topic? If flash wasn't a big deal, why would anyone care? Why would there be apps that supposedly promise flash support? Why would people risk jail-breaking the iPad just for flash support?