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Give Up Hire a Professional

RebeckaR

RebeckaR

New Member
"Definitely some history at this site among members...some of it rather entertaining at times. "

Heck yah! Better than reality tv.

But amongst all the big words and cry-baby whining you learn a lot too.

Something to consider if your design skills basically suck:

I have been in this business for many many years and consider myself an ok designer. I'm actually a much better illustrator than designer. One is not the same as the other.

5 or 6 years ago I hired a dude to design for me, do some selling and basically get my business on the right track.

The Ego gets in the way, but after you let go of that and realize your time can be much better utilized doing other things... it's amazing how much you get done.
He could put together a design in literally half the time it takes me. I still had to be the art director and make suggestions, but it freed me up to be able to run my business instead of struggling with a design that I have no passion for or desire to work on.

He's moved on to his own freelance business, but I still use him from time to time. And now my design skills are better from having worked with someone who knows their stuff.

So when I look at some of the layouts presented here (and I cringe and then grab a cup of coffee 'cuz I know that entertainment is gonna happen) perhaps the person who is being told to hire a designer would be much further ahead if they did. For more than just the obvious reasons.
 
signage

signage

New Member
Seeing how long this web site has been around just maybe the "Signs 101" was for being one of the first sign forums!
 
artsnletters

artsnletters

New Member
Gino said:
It's all about entertainment. Without it, there'd be nothing to do here. Ya see, most of us were born smart and with a pencil in one hand, a brush up our butt and a beer in the other hand. There wasn't anything we couldn't letter... if we could outrun it. Then along comes Captain Gerber of the USS Gerber Machine and thus began the sad turn of talent into a push button society. Now, all we have are old worn out memories of how it used to be and all these whippersnappers turning out digital prints without any concern of people's eyes and burning terribly horrible impressions into our brains and scarring us for life. Yes, the good ol' days. :corndog:
Click to expand...

ah yes isn't this the truth. In fact anyone wanna buy an old Gerber Signmaker 4?
Signpainting/Signmaking kinda used to be a noble trade. Now it's like auto detailing...any schmoe with a bucket, hose and some wax was an instant auto detailer. No different. people with no business being in the SIGN business. Its a shame there aren't some minimum standards or some kind of trade based apprenticeship that carries weight, instead of "hey, i just got a PC with some bootleg FlexiSign program and a chinese plotter, can you show me how to make stick figures and truck lettering so i can letter up my mother-in-laws SUV since she does real estate"????
Sure there is some really good work being done by people new to the industry, but the bulk of it is shit. Continually driving down the quality and value of creative SIGN and Vehicle advertising, ultimately making it a cheap commodity being bidded out to the lowest price. I think this is why there is a cynicism towards some of the newbies who couldn't design their way out of a wet paper sack. Everybody deserves to make a living....maybe just not at the expense of others. Learn the CRAFT...take your lumps, be humble and learn. Sorry for the long drawn out rant.
Tim
 
Dan Antonelli

Dan Antonelli

New Member
artsnletters said:
ah yes isn't this the truth. In fact anyone wanna buy an old Gerber Signmaker 4?
Signpainting/Signmaking kinda used to be a noble trade. Now it's like auto detailing...any schmoe with a bucket, hose and some wax was an instant auto detailer. No different. people with no business being in the SIGN business. Its a shame there aren't some minimum standards or some kind of trade based apprenticeship that carries weight, instead of "hey, i just got a PC with some bootleg FlexiSign program and a chinese plotter, can you show me how to make stick figures and truck lettering so i can letter up my mother-in-laws SUV since she does real estate"????
Sure there is some really good work being done by people new to the industry, but the bulk of it is shit. Continually driving down the quality and value of creative SIGN and Vehicle advertising, ultimately making it a cheap commodity being bidded out to the lowest price. I think this is why there is a cynicism towards some of the newbies who couldn't design their way out of a wet paper sack. Everybody deserves to make a living....maybe just not at the expense of others. Learn the CRAFT...take your lumps, be humble and learn. Sorry for the long drawn out rant.
Tim
Click to expand...

Everything you said is true. But it's also true that this represents an opportunity for you to distinguish your shop, and why what you present is different than the garbage that is at there.

The more garbage that's out there, the easier it is for me to sell. Conversely, if everyone was doing brilliant design work at our level, well, then I'd be scared because if everyone offered what we did, it would be much harder to sell. Cause they could get it from any other place.

Far too many guys see the further denigration of the sign industry as a detriment to their business. It's not. It's actually an opportunity. Unless you are doing the same as everyone else, well, then, yeh, it's not going to be good for you.

Everyone says they don't want to sell vinyl by the pound, but every conversation degrades into a debate about square footage costs for wrap installs. Why? Are you are you not selling design? Look at all the wraps on the road - with 99% of them failing to offer any legitimate advertising benefit to the poor business owner who bought it. There's an opportunity.

Selling design all starts with deciding that you want to sell it. And then marketing yourself as such. And studying it. You can take all the wrap classes you want, certify yourself, buy your 40 grand printer, and still suck at wraps. I don't mean to diminish how hard it is to install a good wrap - and nothing but props to those who excel at it - but the greatest install with the worst design is still a bad wrap.

Not many shops want to examine the real reasons why they are struggling in this economy. Too much ego invested in their company, that they can't see past it. Way too easy to blame everyone and anything else on what is holding them back.

Sorry for the rant - I'm not trying to single you - or anyone out.
 
artsnletters

artsnletters

New Member
Dan Antonelli said:
Everything you said is true. But it's also true that this represents an opportunity for you to distinguish your shop, and why what you present is different than the garbage that is at there.

The more garbage that's out there, the easier it is for me to sell. Conversely, if everyone was doing brilliant design work at our level, well, then I'd be scared because if everyone offered what we did, it would be much harder to sell. Cause they could get it from any other place.

Far too many guys see the further denigration of the sign industry as a detriment to their business. It's not. It's actually an opportunity. Unless you are doing the same as everyone else, well, then, yeh, it's not going to be good for you.

Everyone says they don't want to sell vinyl by the pound, but every conversation degrades into a debate about square footage costs for wrap installs. Why? Are you are you not selling design? Look at all the wraps on the road - with 99% of them failing to offer any legitimate advertising benefit to the poor business owner who bought it. There's an opportunity.

Selling design all starts with deciding that you want to sell it. And then marketing yourself as such. And studying it. You can take all the wrap classes you want, certify yourself, buy your 40 grand printer, and still suck at wraps. I don't mean to diminish how hard it is to install a good wrap - and nothing but props to those who excel at it - but the greatest install with the worst design is still a bad wrap.

Not many shops want to examine the real reasons why they are struggling in this economy. Too much ego invested in their company, that they can't see past it. Way too easy to blame everyone and anything else on what is holding them back.

Sorry for the rant - I'm not trying to single you - or anyone out.
Click to expand...

well, i was simply stating this seems to be the sentiment of most old school sign makers. I use you as a shining example of marketing your business correctly. I've also read and studied your books and articles. Because of your teachings, i too try to do add on sales where i can...selling logos as a separate item , doing business cards, t-shirt designs, whatever as a way to maximize sales to one client. I've also remodeled my shop interior, and improved professionalism where i can. I AM working at changing my image and in turn differenciate (sp?) my work from others, IE my price point. There is perceived value in nice work and some customers don't value it if its too cheap, cause if you don't value your work, why should they? Thanks for your post and i hope i didn't sound like too much sour grapes.
Tim
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Haha.....

I'm not being sour about it either. Seriously.

Did ya ever wonder Dan, if the sign industry didn't have so many hacks in it and such a plethora of avenues in which to sell.... your job would be much more lucrative ??

Besides the hand made signs and stuff.... also back in the day, we had Ad Agencies which did radio, newspaper, television and many other forms of advertising and logo design was a small part of it. Any given agency had numerous artists and they used all the tricks of the trade back then, but it was all done by hand. No computer effects or short cuts for anyone. Heck, even you commented on some of your retro feel logos and how well they go over. Some things just can't be improved upon.

Anyway, not many small businesses could afford them, but they were busy with all the big business just around a local town or city. I worked closely with some of them back in the 60's, 70's and a little into the 80's. Around the 80's, the same thing happened to them as happened later to the sign shop in the 90's.

Those people would get literally $1,000's of dollars for an end logo and I never saw a bad one. I saw some going for $7,500 up to $20,000 for a single logo. It took weeks just to get the preliminary drawings and months to get a final project completed. Sure, I know some of them were milked, but back then... money was much more available. More loopholes in taxes, more local jobs and the world wasn't as closely connected as it is now with the ol' internet. So, our job then was to reproduce it on whatever substrate needed. Yep, they made the big bucks and we always complained how we could do the same chit, but in all honesty.... we didn't know how to charge for it.

It's all a never ending cycle and while many learn some new tricks... others just sit along the sidelines wishing and bitching.
 
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