Hello from a newspaper guy in Texas

[Flame]

I was not inferring that the sign industry as a whole were knuckleheads, just that the local shop that I deal with tends to not provide the best service, but they provide some of the better pricing, so in effect it's better on my end to just put up with it.

For example, I needed a poster printed, 2'X3'. I provided them with an InDesign and a PDF file on Monday. They quoted me $85 which I think is ridiculous even considering they are putting it on foamcore for me, and they said Friday pickup would be no problem. Well, it wasn't ready, the lady took a 3 hour lunch break on Wed and Thursday and now I have to scramble to get a display to somebody by 10am on Monday.

I'm sorry guys for getting off on such a rough start with you guys, I have nothing but the best intentions!

Indesign? Ouch.

Not a bad price either....

Let me just say, that you'll have a HUGE learning curve ahead on you figuring out a solvent printer AND application techniques.

 

[wcalvert]

Indesign? Ouch.

Not a bad price either....

Let me just say, that you'll have a HUGE learning curve ahead on you figuring out a solvent printer AND application techniques.

What would be the best file format to send something like that to a print company?

Also, I've applied some vinyl before and the results weren't too bad. I definitely know that I need to practice. One of my friends owns an auto-vinyl shop in downtown Houston and he said that he's more than happy to let me come work for him for free for a few weekends to learn.

 

[wcalvert]

i'd probably charge more for a 2x3 full color...and then of course, there'd be a fee to set the supplied file if it wasn't print ready

If I didn't have to have it within a few days, then I would have ordered it online. I think it was allposters that offered $3.33/sq.ft for any size.

 

[WRAPS]

good luck on that learning curve.that vinyl just doesnt magically go on the bus.when you send file to print it doesnt always come out like it looks on screen.
you're about to dive head first into a pool and you dont know how deep the water is.

you need more research, banner and psa vinyl ARE NOT the same thing.


i'm on 10 months of "learning"+ $50,000 and i'm more frustrated than ever!!!!!

signed, knucklehead
a.k.a. "wraps"

 

[wcalvert]

good luck on that learning curve.that vinyl just doesnt magically go on the bus.when you send file to print it doesnt always come out like it looks on screen.
you're about to dive head first into a pool and you dont know how deep the water is.

you need more research, banner and vinyl are not the same thing.


i'm on 10 months of "learning"+ $50,000 and i'm more frustrated than ever!!!!!

Haha, I know the difference between a banner and vinyl. Our companies internal term for the signs is banner, which is why I used it here.

And like I said, I'm hoping that my background in print design and publication will help me with that. Sending something to our presses doesn't mean that it will come out looking the same. We have to pull color out of every photo because they will turn out incredibly dark.

Thanks for the warnings. Again, this isn't 100% going to happen, but I'm supposed to figure out if it's something we want/I want to do.

 

[Bigdawg]

Well I've been on the print design (and even newspaper) end like you and I speak from experience when I tell you they are two different critters when it comes to design. First of all start designing your banners - or signs - or whatever in Illustrator instead of InDesign. InDesign is a page layout program first and foremost and not even close to an industry standard in the sign industry.

While you have some compelling financial arguments as to why it may (and I say MAY not WILL) be more cost-effective to do it yourself, there is a huge learning curve on the equipment and working with the materials. What happens when you apply - it all looks good and two weeks later the vinyl is failing? Will you have enough knowledge to know why? That would be a pretty big public oops.

Your best bet is to use an experienced professional for printing and for installations. You may even be able to buy wholesale and find an EXPERIENCED installer. With the kind of volume you are talking it would be foolish for anyone to think they could just jump in without any experience and there won't be a problem.

 

[Techman]

Woah, I wasn't insulting the trade. I am a graphic designer, just in a different way.

Yes you are..

I have never hired a Graphic Designer. I can do it cheaper. Why pay a good designer big money when I can do it myself for about half. Even though I have no clue i can still do it. But just because it looks like crap doesn't mean its bad. My customers never complained. In fact they never come back. I get lots of new customers every day. So I guess that means I am doing good...

I think you are acting like a graphics designer. And not acting like a smart business person at all. If you had any moxy you would be hunting down a pair of local printers and do wholesaler deal with them.

Why would you want to cut out a local expert? I don't get it. Oh yes, now I remember, Graphics designers think running a large format printer is just like running that desktop laser. Thats your second mistake. Your first was dissing those who do this work. The third mistake is thinking you can do it yourself cheaper.

Just think. You get to buy colormetric equipment to align your entire print loop so it prints the right colors. Wow, That only adds on about 3 grand if you do it cheap. Then you gotta spend another grand to learn how to run that stuff. Wow, then you get to spend another 4 - 5 grand learning how to run your printer. Wow, then you got your down time waiting for your techy to fix yoru printer when it goes crazy. Then you gotta pay your techy and train him. Oh yes, I forgot, you can buy a warranty package for another $2500 a year. Yes that will get you into bizz.

You can't save in the short run.. and the long run will be out there around 8 years to break even. Meanwhile you will start seeking out local work to pay to keep that machine busy. (You already are) thus removing real sign and banner printers from the loop.

So, dream on. And when your local boys find out you are taking away work to pay for that printer,, and see you are subsidizing that printer via the newspaper... They will soon mount a quiet campaign that will silently cost you revenue from the paper.

 

[Pro Image]

Damn you guy amaze me.........This man come one here and is in the advertising industry...And yes news papers are in the industry.....But just a few weeks ago a guy with a mustang that was like... OHHH so friggen COOL... wanted to "wrap" it, what was the first thing most of you told him to do......Yea you can do it.....Here how.....yada yada yada......Not one of you told that guy to go to a professional.......


Yes the Kunckle head thing wasn't necessary but hey we have called people worse...............

Now you get a guy like this............In the industry and your all got to jump on him for wanting to print his own.......As for the learning curve I think if his family has run a paper with their big pressed a solvent wont be too hard to figure out......

If he's not lying about how many banners he needs then he should be getting a better price and you all know it.......

If you need to get thing wholesale check out the banners at the bottom of the page they will print your banners or vinyl for you for a better price than you get from your local person...........

 

[Bigdawg]

That's my point Dustin. Presses vs. Printers - It really is a big difference. I wasn't trying to be hostile (speaking for myself), but to have a contract before you have the capability is a little crazy if you ask me. How did he price the contract?

Yes, in the long run for him buying a printer may be beneficial... but to get one and expect to be producing high-profile jobs without a hitch is unrealistic. I (and anyone else in the beginning) know how hard it is to do all the things that looked so easy from the other side of the fence. He has built no learning time in, so my advice is go to a professional and work out a wholesale deal.

 

[wcalvert]

Yes you are..

I have never hired a Graphic Designer. I can do it cheaper. Why pay a good designer big money when I can do it myself for about half. Even though I have no clue i can still do it. But just because it looks like crap doesn't mean its bad. My customers never complained. In fact they never come back. I get lots of new customers every day. So I guess that means I am doing good...

I think you are acting like a graphics designer. And not acting like a smart business person at all. If you had any moxy you would be hunting down a pair of local printers and do wholesaler deal with them.

Why would you want to cut out a local expert? I don't get it. Oh yes, now I remember, Graphics designers think running a large format printer is just like running that desktop laser. Thats your second mistake. Your first was dissing those who do this work. The third mistake is thinking you can do it yourself cheaper.

Just think. You get to buy colormetric equipment to align your entire print loop so it prints the right colors. Wow, That only adds on about 3 grand if you do it cheap. Then you gotta spend another grand to learn how to run that stuff. Wow, then you get to spend another 4 - 5 grand learning how to run your printer. Wow, then you got your down time waiting for your techy to fix yoru printer when it goes crazy. Then you gotta pay your techy and train him. Oh yes, I forgot, you can buy a warranty package for another $2500 a year. Yes that will get you into bizz.

You can't save in the short run.. and the long run will be out there around 8 years to break even. Meanwhile you will start seeking out local work to pay to keep that machine busy. (You already are) thus removing real sign and banner printers from the loop.

So, dream on. And when your local boys find out you are taking away work to pay for that printer,, and see you are subsidizing that printer via the newspaper... They will soon mount a quiet campaign that will silently cost you revenue from the paper.

First, I think you are out of line. You are making huge generalizations even after I clarified myself.

That's funny about wholesale, I went to the local shop and tried to work out a deal, and he said the price might go down 10%. Instead of dealing with the 20 year old salesman (I am only 23, not dissing the young guys) we've been in contact with the owner and we are going to attempt to work out a deal.

Our papers did over $1,000,000 in sales our first year (you can read about it in the Houston Business Journal) and we're on pace for approximately 20% growth this year.

I fully understand that the only way you can be successful at anything is to put in the effort. None of you know me, which is fine, but I know me, and if I can get a BS in Mathematics (focusing on Actuarial Science or risk assessment) from UT Austin, guide our newspaper business to profitability within a year (with a direct competitor), then I think I can figure out how to print banners, do it well, and make money in the process.

I want to thank Pro Image for stepping up here and saying something, because I thought surely this isn't how you treat all new members. We're all hear to learn and to communicate, and I'm sure that we can all help each other succeed.

 

[wcalvert]

That's my point Dustin. Presses vs. Printers - It really is a big difference. I wasn't trying to be hostile (speaking for myself), but to have a contract before you have the capability is a little crazy if you ask me. How did he price the contract?

Yes, in the long run for him buying a printer may be beneficial... but to get one and expect to be producing high-profile jobs without a hitch is unrealistic. I (and anyone else in the beginning) know how hard it is to do all the things that looked so easy from the other side of the fence. He has built no learning time in, so my advice is go to a professional and work out a wholesale deal.

Let me explain myself a little more. I don't have a contract to print those numbers of banners. I have a contract to sell approximately 2000 of those spaces, and part of selling the space is going to be to print and apply the banners.

We were/are going to contract out the initial few to get things rolling, but the bulk of our work will start in August.

I came to this site to see how cost effective it would be to print the vinyl ourselves since we will be reselling them anyway.

Edit: And to sell those number of spaces is unrealistic, especially right now. We will be offering contracts as low as 3 months and as long as we think the vinyl will look ok. Selling 400-500 of them the first year is a reasonable estimate that we came up with. We keep 100% of the profit made on the signs, whereas 60% is going to our client for letting us use their advertising space.

 

[iSign]

a 23 year old, book-smart know-it-all... and the economy and other factors have conspired to allow you a few good rolls of the dice... and now you got a hotel on park place AND boardwalk... and the world is your oyster....

I agree, go invest all your monoply money & put a solvent printer & a fat wrap contract between those two hotels...

why not... you one smart bugga you... can not lose...

Then we'll subsidize our friend Capital Signs here, to undercut your fat contract for all those buses....

hahahahaha... that would be hilarious... no f'n clue in the sign industry ("but, I'm a graphic designer") and ready to set up shop for ONE lousy contract...

dude, go back to monoply, or risk, or whatever they play in college these days... I think the success of your daddys paper is swelling yer head a bit too much for your own good!

 

[Techman]

That's funny about wholesale, I went to the local shop and tried to work out a deal, and he said the price might go down 10%

You went to just one shop??????
You my friend are the one out of line..

If you walked into my shop with a "possible" (speculation) deal you would likely get the same thing.
But if you walked into my shop with some real paper in hand then you would get the full lunch deal. Instead, you walked into his shop just as those 50 others a month and tried to ask for a nice discount.

Speculation gets speculation. You didn't give him anything to sink his teeth into. If you knew how many times someone walks in our shops with those "I got this huge deal gimme a discount" demands you would use different tactics.

Then If you call me and say. "I want to order 40 banners next week how much can we work with? Then its a different story. IF you call your local guy and use the correct tactics you will get a deal too. Or as mentioned above. Use one of the merchants listed below and get a real professional deal.

 

[gtjet]

Have you priced foam core? Are you factoring in labor, maintenance, repairs, wasted materials from doing the jobs, depreciation, interest on the money borrowed to buy the equipment or lost on money taken from savings to pay for it out right.

 

[wcalvert]

a 23 year old, book-smart know-it-all... and the economy and other factors have conspired to allow you a few good rolls of the dice... and now you got a hotel on park place AND boardwalk... and the world is your oyster....

I agree, go invest all your monoply money & put a solvent printer & a fat wrap contract between those two hotels...

why not... you one smart bugga you... can not lose...

Then we'll subsidize our friend Capital Signs here, to undercut your fat contract for all those buses....

hahahahaha... that would be hilarious... no f'n clue in the sign industry ("but, I'm a graphic designer") and ready to set up shop for ONE lousy contract...

dude, go back to monoply, or risk, or whatever they play in college these days... I think the success of your daddys paper is swelling yer head a bit too much for your own good!

I don't understand why you are being so hostile! And I still don't think you understand what we are getting a contract for, it's not to print signs. As I mentioned, I am merely here to do a cost-benefit analysis of doing our own setup instead of subcontracting out.

Edit: And PS, my dad is dead. It's my mom's paper

 

[wcalvert]

Have you priced foam core? Are you factoring in labor, maintenance, repairs, wasted materials from doing the jobs, depreciation, interest on the money borrowed to buy the equipment or lost on money taken from savings to pay for it out right.

Well, let's see. I could have it printed online and delivered for about $25. I wouldn't ever think foam backing would cost $50+ for a single 2X3

 

[iSign]

I don't understand why you are being so hostile! And I still don't think you understand what we are getting a contract for, it's not to print signs. As I mentioned, I am merely here to do a cost-benefit analysis of doing our own setup instead of subcontracting out.

yeah... I do understand... you got a good contract to sell advertising... which is what you do... be happy with that & quit taking your eye off the ball and focusing it on the fact that your (not anyone elses.. but YOUR, (as in MINE! ...ALL MINE) client will also be needing to reach in their deep pockets and purchase other professional products and services.. SO, WHY NOT BEND BACKASSWARD AND GET IN LINE FOR THAT MONEY TOO?? ...after all it's YOUR client... might as well be YOUR money... who gives a rip that you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the other professional products and services YOUR client needs.

I'm being hostile because YOU think this is even remotely appropriate for mommy's paper to tool up for bus wraps because your advertising sales job, put you in proximity of a potentially lucrative bus wrapping contract. (OK, partial wrap) Earth-to-n00b... your perceived design prowess, and at-the-ready CS workstations do nothing to enhance your lack of understanding of the industry you hope to cut out in your profit seeking ignorance.

• I can almost guarantee your first several large format designs WILL look like crap from a distance, without experience in distance viewing design considerations notrequired for print design
• I CAN guarantee you WILL FAIL several installations of that complexity LONG before you become profitable enough to justify your shortsighted DIY mentality
• If you had no job, AND mommy's money... maybe then this foray into large format printing could have a happy ending... BUT, if you are already working for a living, you simply will not have the time neccessary to justify this expense... NOT to mention the space required, and the maintenance, and the need to diversify your core business dramartically to turn your whimsical notion into even a break-even venture

summary: COST=Very High BENEFIT=Very Low

Well, let's see. I could have it printed online and delivered for about $25. I wouldn't ever think foam backing would cost $50+ for a single 2X3

Well, let's see... I haven't alienated every last one of these professionals I'd counted on to fill in all the blanks on my plans to charge into uncharted territory without a clue... maybe they'll give me some clues if I keep showing my total ignorance of everything about their business, profitability model, and the challenges small, do-it-all signs shops are up against with on-line companies offering lower prices in a small niche market, based on increased investment capital & equipment budgets allowing lowball prices on inferior products, and NO design services... fooling the naive into considering apples and oranges to be the same

 

[Bradster941]

You will make so much more money in the short AND long run if you just use one of the merchant members to do your printing and find a local experienced guy to install at $2 a sq. ft..

You can't have it both ways because there just isn't enough time in the day.


.

 

[jimmysigns]

Well, let's see. I could have it printed online and delivered for about $25. I wouldn't ever think foam backing would cost $50+ for a single 2X3

wow! thats a great price
I wouldn't make an 18 x 24 coroplast sign in one color that just said "get lost" for $25.00
you keep talking & yer digging yourself a deeper hole.

 

[DrCAS]

Tough not to trip while back pedaling, huh?