Hello from a newspaper guy in Texas

[5acrefarmer]

Give up !

Mr Calvert just doesn't know when to quit!
Go away !

Ignorance is bliss.
He just doesn't know all the stuff that we know from years of experience and would take ages to explain to him.

Get the contract, do the job the way you think it should be done
and take responsibility for the results!

 

[GregT]

Welcome from PA

 

[Techman]

I wouldn't ever think foam backing would cost $50+ for a single 2X3

Thats because you are an ad salesman. You don't understand the cost of goods sold. The foam core is not expensive. But the labor is. The total cost of that poster is not just the materials. Its the material + labor+ profit = value.

You spend time ordering that poster online for cheap. Then spend your time delivering it, then spend time on pick up,, then pay him to do the work. All that adds up. C'mon man it don't make sense. You either save $50 bux and spend it on your own work time or you spend $50 bux and give yourself more time to more productive things

Oh by the way, I went to college too. University New Orleans Chem E. So did a lot of other people here go to college. Telling us you want tp College don't cut any cheese with experienced bizz owners.
There are very few dummies posting here. It amazes me that all these people with thousands of years combined experience find your bizz venture a little self centered, but you cannot see the light.

Contact one of the merchants here and have them print your work wholesale. That way every one wins.




A STUNNING SENIOR MOMENT

A very self-important yuppie attending a recent football game, took it upon himself to explain to a senior citizen sitting next to him why it was impossible for the older generation to understand his generation. 'You grew up in a different world, actually an almost primitive one,' the yuppie said, loud enough for many of those nearby to hear.

'The young people of today grew up with television, jet planes, space travel, man walking on the moon, our spaceships have visited Mars. We have nuclear energy, electric and hydrogen cars, computers with light-speed processing'

Pausing to take another drink of beer, the senior citizen took advantage of the break in the student's litany and said, 'You're right, son. We didn't have those things when we were young....so we invented them.

Now tell me you arrogant little smart ass, what are you doing for the next generation?'

The applause was resounding.

 

[DARLAK]

wcalvert - your an arrogant Fk who needs to learn a few things...

go out drinkng tonight, speak your mind, get your head kicked in, then take some time to think about things just a bit....

 

[jdb]

What I don't understand is how someone who knows nothing about making signs or has even done a sign or has no equipment and is scrambling trying to find out how to run expensive equipment gets a contract like that with zero experience. I don't think someone could get a contract to operate on someone without any experience or degrees, unless they're some kind of scam artist or thief. Does this guy think he's going to learn on the job? I would'nt contract anyone for anything to be learning on the job for me. But of coarse the customer does'nt know this. Does'nt sound too honest.

 

[wcalvert]

What I don't understand is how someone who knows nothing about making signs or has even done a sign or has no equipment and is scrambling trying to find out how to run expensive equipment gets a contract like that with zero experience. I don't think someone could get a contract to operate on someone without any experience or degrees, unless they're some kind of scam artist or thief. Does this guy think he's going to learn on the job? I would'nt contract anyone for anything to be learning on the job for me. But of coarse the customer does'nt know this. Does'nt sound too honest.

If you will read what I said, then you will see that I was not awarded a contract to print signs. I was awarded a contract to sell advertising space for a school district, the majority of which will be for on-bus advertising. The state of Texas is specific in what can be done, and it calls for a sign approximately 2'X8'.

We have the option of either contracting out the vinyl print work, and I was here to research the possibility of us acquiring some printing hardware and making our own, therefore absorbing whatever profit the local printer made, into our profits.

However, about 99% of the people on this board flipped out when I suggested we not use someone that has already established a business in printing. I made a reference to a local printer that does not have very good customer service as a knucklehead, and everybody assumed that I meant the sign industry as a whole, which is not true, and I already apologized as much.

 

[wcalvert]

Mr Calvert just doesn't know when to quit!
Go away !

Ignorance is bliss.
He just doesn't know all the stuff that we know from years of experience and would take ages to explain to him.

Get the contract, do the job the way you think it should be done
and take responsibility for the results!

Why do you think I came here? To talk crap about how I'm so smart and can just do whatever the hell I want and rub it in your faces? Or do you think I came here to learn a thing or two and see if it's even plausible to do it?

Think about that for a moment.

 

[wcalvert]

yeah... I do understand... you got a good contract to sell advertising... which is what you do... be happy with that & quit taking your eye off the ball and focusing it on the fact that your (not anyone elses.. but YOUR, (as in MINE! ...ALL MINE) client will also be needing to reach in their deep pockets and purchase other professional products and services.. SO, WHY NOT BEND BACKASSWARD AND GET IN LINE FOR THAT MONEY TOO?? ...after all it's YOUR client... might as well be YOUR money... who gives a rip that you know ABSOLUTELY NOTHING about the other professional products and services YOUR client needs.

I'm being hostile because YOU think this is even remotely appropriate for mommy's paper to tool up for bus wraps because your advertising sales job, put you in proximity of a potentially lucrative bus wrapping contract. (OK, partial wrap) Earth-to-n00b... your perceived design prowess, and at-the-ready CS workstations do nothing to enhance your lack of understanding of the industry you hope to cut out in your profit seeking ignorance.

• I can almost guarantee your first several large format designs WILL look like crap from a distance, without experience in distance viewing design considerations notrequired for print design
• I CAN guarantee you WILL FAIL several installations of that complexity LONG before you become profitable enough to justify your shortsighted DIY mentality
• If you had no job, AND mommy's money... maybe then this foray into large format printing could have a happy ending... BUT, if you are already working for a living, you simply will not have the time neccessary to justify this expense... NOT to mention the space required, and the maintenance, and the need to diversify your core business dramartically to turn your whimsical notion into even a break-even venture

summary: COST=Very High BENEFIT=Very Low

Well, let's see... I haven't alienated every last one of these professionals I'd counted on to fill in all the blanks on my plans to charge into uncharted territory without a clue... maybe they'll give me some clues if I keep showing my total ignorance of everything about their business, profitability model, and the challenges small, do-it-all signs shops are up against with on-line companies offering lower prices in a small niche market, based on increased investment capital & equipment budgets allowing lowball prices on inferior products, and NO design services... fooling the naive into considering apples and oranges to be the same

Here's my big perspective. We plan on doing 400-500 signs within a calendar year, with the maximum being about 1800. The signs are all about 2'X8' and I have to pay approximately $100 a piece to have them installed through a local place. Or, I could print them myself for $25 each and pay someone about $20 a sign to install them and save $55 a sign. Even at my low end of 400 signs and savings of $50/sign, that's $20,000!!!

Lets say we do 400, 600, 800, 1000, 1200 each year respectively (conservative as we plan on adding multiple contracts, and our current one could contain that). That's 4,000 signs, for a cost savings of $200,000. With numbers that large, it's something I absolutely need to look into.

It may not be worth the investment the first year, but it's something that I need to at least have an answer for.

I hope all of you understand that I'm not trying to attract additional printing business. I'm not going to print vinyl decals or any of that stuff, I am interested in exclusively printing these vinyl pieces (2'X8').

I really want to fighting to stop here. I don't want to be your enemies. It's said that it's very hard to fight somebody if you can truly see their viewpoint, so I'm really trying to explain where I'm coming from here.

And I want to say thank you for the few nice PMs I've received with helpful information.

 

[Left Coast]

all the power to you i say...

if that is, you can make a 16 sq/ft sign at that price using a vinyl that wont fail almost immediatly and if you can find someone willing to install something of that size for $20

kudos to you then indeed!!!

cheers

 

[DOGraphics]

:Welcome: 2 :signs101:

 

[Gino]

Whoa Nellie………

wcalvert I’m sure by now, you understand that you really don’t fit in here as a sign maker, based on 99% of the responses here. With so many people explaining to you how you might do better [money-wise and knowledge-wise] by finding the proper company to sub out to, to deal with for you needs…. you still are arguing with everyone. Seems like you don’t want any help. As hostile as this may all seem to you and put a dent in your ego about doing it in-house….. it really isn’t a smart move on you or your mommy’s part to do it in-house at this point.

The main point you seem to be missing is…. you don’t know what you’re talking about and want quick easy answers to your somewhat immature questions. Immature in a business-sense…. any other way is up to you to decide.

To do this the way you are trying to go about this is simply…. ‘Putting the Cart in Front of the Horse. It won’t happen without much frustration and loss of money. You’re already cutting out the professional part of it, so you’ll probably cut out other important factors when it comes to machine choices, lamination and substrates.

You’re doomed in the method you're seeking. Use your local shops or pick some from this site, but don’t cut the most important part out…. The Finished Product.

I didn’t see the part where you called us all knuckleheads, so you must’ve gone back and edited it out rather than say you were sorry. To me, this shows a very shallow person and someone I would not care to do business with for any reason.

No need to quote me and read me the riot act like you’ve done to many others. Being in the newspaper business…. you should’ve learned how to pick the valuable things out of all of these posts and used it to your advantage, when actually, you’ve only displayed a spoiled little brat with some numbers that look good on paper, but you don’t have a clue as what to do with any of it. Want your cake and eat it too, I guess fits well.

Okay, I’m finished for the moment.

Oh yeah….. another :Welcome: from PA………………….
​

 

[andy]

Let me tell you a true story about bus based advertising;

A while back a good friend of mine had a contract with a large bus and coach operator- he sold the advertising space and they took a cut.

Everything worked nicely for a few years- then Viacom contacted the coach operator with a proposal. They would pay the operator half a million pounds sterling per annum for the exclusive rights to use the advertising space on the operators vehicles- this offer was guaranteed- even if Viacom sold not one advert they would sill pay the bus owner his half million quid.

As you can imagine the bus operator bit Viacom's arm off and my friend lost his business.

I can appreciate that the opportunity to get a printer and dive on into the industry is something you are excited about. What you are forgetting is that bus advertising is old news- a million and one other people have had the same idea a long time ago.

What I do know from this part of the industry is that the real money is tied in with the large advertisers and the large advertising companies- you can have all the printing machines you like but the real volume bus adverts are screen printed in their thousands for next to nothing- you won't even get a sniff of this work.

Unless you have the deep pockets of Viacom I wouldn't waste time building up a flawed business model- if you do succeed in your local market the big boys will soon find out and make the bus owners an offer you simply can't match- then your sign printers are useless.

The hostile reception you have encountered is mainly down to your opening statements- whilst it is exciting that you could get into digital printing you seem to forget this is a forum for professional people- the sign industry pays our bills and supports our families- if I marched into your office and called your publication a tin pot toilet paper rag you wouldn't be very pleased- what makes you think we are any different.

I wouldn't normally share valuable trade information like this- it would be easier to let you find out about how the likes of Viacom work- it would be an expensive lesson which you may or may not have recovered from. We might not all have masters degrees but we do know this industry.

 

[Mikeifg]

THE KNUCKLEHEADS DOWN THE STREET ARE CHARGING ME 3.75 FOR A GALLON OF GAS. I THINK I'M GOING TO DRILL FOR MY OWN SINCE IT LOOKS SOO SIMPLE DRILL A HOLE AND OIL COMES OUT.(GET THE EQUIPMENT AND THE SIGN POPS OUT ALREADY INSTALLED IT'S THAT EASY!)

Your killing us dude.

 

[wcalvert]

Whoa Nellie………

wcalvert I’m sure by now, you understand that you really don’t fit in here as a sign maker, based on 99% of the responses here. With so many people explaining to you how you might do better [money-wise and knowledge-wise] by finding the proper company to sub out to, to deal with for you needs…. you still are arguing with everyone. Seems like you don’t want any help. As hostile as this may all seem to you and put a dent in your ego about doing it in-house….. it really isn’t a smart move on you or your mommy’s part to do it in-house at this point.

The main point you seem to be missing is…. you don’t know what you’re talking about and want quick easy answers to your somewhat immature questions. Immature in a business-sense…. any other way is up to you to decide.

To do this the way you are trying to go about this is simply…. ‘Putting the Cart in Front of the Horse. It won’t happen without much frustration and loss of money. You’re already cutting out the professional part of it, so you’ll probably cut out other important factors when it comes to machine choices, lamination and substrates.

You’re doomed in the method you're seeking. Use your local shops or pick some from this site, but don’t cut the most important part out…. The Finished Product.

I didn’t see the part where you called us all knuckleheads, so you must’ve gone back and edited it out rather than say you were sorry. To me, this shows a very shallow person and someone I would not care to do business with for any reason.

No need to quote me and read me the riot act like you’ve done to many others. Being in the newspaper business…. you should’ve learned how to pick the valuable things out of all of these posts and used it to your advantage, when actually, you’ve only displayed a spoiled little brat with some numbers that look good on paper, but you don’t have a clue as what to do with any of it. Want your cake and eat it too, I guess fits well.

Okay, I’m finished for the moment.

Oh yeah….. another :Welcome: from PA………………….
​

This is a response that is more akin to what I would expect.

And to reiterate, I did not call y'all knuckleheads. Flat out didn't happen. Not only that but I did apologize as well if it was interpreted that way.

I'm not sure how I was interpreted as being a spoiled little brat, but I have fortunately learned more about what's going on.

I did believe that spitting out vinyl was just about the same as printing something on a sheet of paper. I was quickly corrected, and I understand that it is much more of a complex process.

Just wondering, but did you read the other things I posted in this thread? It's obvious that a lot of people just read a few of the responses and pick up their pitch forks as well.

 

[wcalvert]

Let me tell you a true story about bus based advertising;

A while back a good friend of mine had a contract with a large bus and coach operator- he sold the advertising space and they took a cut.

Everything worked nicely for a few years- then Viacom contacted the coach operator with a proposal. They would pay the operator half a million pounds sterling per annum for the exclusive rights to use the advertising space on the operators vehicles- this offer was guaranteed- even if Viacom sold not one advert they would sill pay the bus owner his half million quid.

As you can imagine the bus operator bit Viacom's arm off and my friend lost his business.

I can appreciate that the opportunity to get a printer and dive on into the industry is something you are excited about. What you are forgetting is that bus advertising is old news- a million and one other people have had the same idea a long time ago.

What I do know from this part of the industry is that the real money is tied in with the large advertisers and the large advertising companies- you can have all the printing machines you like but the real volume bus adverts are screen printed in their thousands for next to nothing- you won't even get a sniff of this work.

Unless you have the deep pockets of Viacom I wouldn't waste time building up a flawed business model- if you do succeed in your local market the big boys will soon find out and make the bus owners an offer you simply can't match- then your sign printers are useless.

The hostile reception you have encountered is mainly down to your opening statements- whilst it is exciting that you could get into digital printing you seem to forget this is a forum for professional people- the sign industry pays our bills and supports our families- if I marched into your office and called your publication a tin pot toilet paper rag you wouldn't be very pleased- what makes you think we are any different.

I wouldn't normally share valuable trade information like this- it would be easier to let you find out about how the likes of Viacom work- it would be an expensive lesson which you may or may not have recovered from. We might not all have masters degrees but we do know this industry.

Thank you for the insight. There are a very limited number of bus-based advertising agencies out there, and I hope that we've found a sort of niche here. The only reason I was looking at buying a printer was because it looked cost effective with our current contract, much less looking to the future.

Please note that I didn't insult your industry, and I have nothing but respect for it. I am sorry if you interpreted my message as saying that.

 

[DOGraphics]

This is a response that is more akin to what I would expect.


Just wondering, but did you read the other things I posted in this thread? It's obvious that a lot of people just read a few of the responses and pick up their pitch forks as well.

That happens sometimes

 

[Fred Weiss]

The problem is your reason for being here in the first place. Despite our name possibly causing confusion for some, we are a community of individuals engaged in the craft and business of sign making as professionals. Our livelihoods depend on improving our skills and developing our talents. Otherwise, we are faced with losing our livelihoods to do-it-yourselfers and amateurs who perceive what it takes to create signs as easy.

The perception of most of our members who have commented in your thread is that you are not a professional sign maker and are here to ask us to help you in your efforts to bypass the products and services we each individually offer. Instead of seeking out a professional level vendor to supply you and assist you in any number of ways, who has already invested in the equipment and the learning curve, and who would likely improve the results, satisfaction and overall return from your new contract, you still seem to feel that this is not something of enough value to consider.

You are in the trap of knowing enough to be dangerous. You have established your product valuations from internet browsing and have concluded that anything beyond the production of your printed vinyl at whatever unknown quality is all any vendor will do for you ... at least that you place any value upon.

Do you not see how we as individuals and as a community would disagree with your perceptions? The contract you are so proud of that you feel is somehow outside the province of the professional community represents lost business to us. Why would you think we would greet you with enthusiasm or assist you in an enterprise that is going to dilute our market?

 

[Gino]

T

Just wondering, but did you read the other things I posted in this thread? It's obvious that a lot of people just read a few of the responses and pick up their pitch forks as well.

:Oops: Are you referring to me ??

Gino
​

 

[slappy]

judging the layout design on your website banner at the bottom of your page, i wish you the best in luck!

 

[iSign]

Please note that I didn't insult your industry, and I have nothing but respect for it. I am sorry if you interpreted my message as saying that.

I'll chime in here again, and put the torches down for a minute to respond more slowly.

I don't doubt that you have respect for the sign trade, and I don't deny that you had no intention of insulting the trade, or the tradesmen here.

Along the same lines as the answer I'd give to your comment about reading the entire thread, or just joining in the flamefest... nobody owes you the time to take you seriously, or the time to educate you with kid gloves. My hostility, and possibly others as well, is spawned in the fact of such total ignorance of all that's required to follow through with you fantasy.

The attitude comes from the fact that nobody owes you the education you need to understand the vast multitude of misperceptions you already suffer from, the short-sightedness, skewed calculations, unrealistic expectations, incomplete analysis, and overall ignorance of the job before you (well off to the side of you actually, though it has captivated your attention with the lure of easy money)

Sure, we'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you didn't intend to insult us... but the thing is, you so completely underestimate what would be required to tool up, train, become proficient at the nuances of large format design, make proper material choice, and master one of the most challenging installation tasks in this industry... that to even consider the possibility of cutting out the sign profession by the simple act of writing a check for some equipment... that is far more insulting than you will ever know, untill you learn even 1 tenth of the things folks here are thinking when they read your outlandish phantasmagorical pipedream...

...but as I said, nobody owes you the time it takes to educate you in all that would be required to see the folly of your ways... so instead of a simple NO... you're getting more of a HELL NO!! as a form of warning for your own sake, with less effort for our sake.